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[Music]

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welcome back to liminal frames with

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nathan and exo academian this is going

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to be episode 11 of the show

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very excited to have all of you joining

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us uh for this show exo what i thought

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we would do is uh do it not uh by a

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soccer field but maybe

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if we could go to i don't know i'm

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thinking like

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uh a maternity ward at the hospital or

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uh maybe we could record somewhere like

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i think you mentioned maybe the airport

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uh airport runway uh what do you think

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we get a good response we want some

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ambiance of some crying babies or jets

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taking off in the background i mean i

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feel like we'd be lacking if we didn't

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have something like that absolutely and

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there's one thing i learned from that

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experiment is uh people really enjoyed

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that extra cacophony in the background

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although i will say as much as we're

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joking about it uh we had a mixture of

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comments so we had some folks who

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didn't mind it at all some folks who

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it sounded like they could make it

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through the episode uh some who even

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messaged me and said that they

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really enjoyed it because of the soccer

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noises in the background that it

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reminded them

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of uh soccer that they used to play uh

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you know in in when they were kids so

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you know it's it's just a mixture of

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things i do know we're gonna try it

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again we're just gonna pick a little

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different venue than that next time we

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do

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right i think uh yeah the the moral to

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that story is

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people respond differently to ambi to

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ambient noise you know some some like it

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some find it really distracting

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um we will do uh some outside venues

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again but we will probably try to like

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have a little bit more minimal

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background noise when that's the case

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like maybe some birds dripping or

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something like that yeah i could go for

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some birds chirping yeah

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well very excited to try that again the

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future uh when you live where we live it

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it's just you have to take that

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opportunity when when it presents itself

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because it does change the dynamic it's

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nice to be able to sit across from one

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another and and have a conversation like

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anybody would

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with a friend and while we get to do it

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virtually there just isn't a substitute

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to that i think in person interaction

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well shifting our attention to uh the

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episode for today we are going to cover

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uh contact modalities methods of contact

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and look at this topic from

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a few different

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perspectives

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like we would typically do and we're

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going to use a similar format that we

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used in the last episode we're going to

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play

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some clips

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that kind of talk a little bit about

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these different modalities

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anyone who's familiar with this topic

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knows that there are a lot of different

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contact modalities that exist

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we're probably not going to hit on every

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single one of them but what we want to

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be able to do is walk through

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some of the familiar and then unfamiliar

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ones that exist

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and examine them from different

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perspectives and at the end we're going

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to i think hopefully

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take that you know macro view and say

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you know what what's really happening

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here with all of these different types

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of interactions but exo when we kind of

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talked about this idea

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uh as as our next episode

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you know what were some things that you

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were looking forward to uh

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touching on as we go through this

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well if i were to use a phrase i would

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say a point of convergence

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between uh you know these different uh

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what are often or would have

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historically been treated as different

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phenomena right different uh fields of

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study altogether

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when actually when you look at the data

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there's a lot of overlap somehow these

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all seem to be pointing to some uh

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meta category saying something about the

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nature of reality itself uh you know we

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use this term consciousness right that

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uh

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not only is there evidence coming out of

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you know

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the neuroscience of consciousness and

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quantum mechanics suggesting that

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consciousness may be primary rather than

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matter and energy

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but also these different modalities um

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also seem to be pointing to that being

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the case but in a lot of ways when we

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say therefore that consciousness is

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primary and this is the connection point

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what we're really seeing is the the

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substrate of reality is wired this way

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so

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people are having these experiences and

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having this degree of overlap because

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this is something about just the way the

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fabric of reality is organized which is

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fascinating to me that this uh this sort

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of topic we're tackling tonight is

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near and dear to my heart it's probably

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my biggest fascination and it's the

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biggest focus of my ongoing research

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it's great to hear you say that because

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i think that this topic

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really truly is the on-ramp to

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understanding what's going on i think

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that there are

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if you if you look at what what the

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literature sort of hints at if you look

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at the various ways in which phenomenal

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experience occurs

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you if you take it seriously you have to

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say

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you know what is the unifying theme you

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know what what is that that substrate as

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you said that really connects these

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things together if you can't answer that

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question you're really not getting at

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the heart of what's going on here and so

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i think it's a it's a great topic to

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explore

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i also think in in a

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sort of landscape where we seem to be

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information poor in terms of uh folks

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saying i want the facts and i want more

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ufo photos and i want you know more more

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data there actually is a great deal of

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data it just it just doesn't happen to

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come from ufo encounters necessarily and

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so we're going to look at some of those

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other areas that i think are just as

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equally valid as the ufo piece and again

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taking all those things together and

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saying okay let's put it on the board

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and let's see what's going on here and

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and see if we can get to a greater

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understanding

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right i would add that i think part of

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the reason why

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um this hasn't this focus is fairly new

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and hasn't been really highlighted

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highlighted a lot in the history

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is because there have been various you

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know interest groups that have

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lobbied for a particular narrative right

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and only sought to find data that

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supports that narrative so you and here

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again i think of jacques villa and

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the work he's done and his equal

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critique towards mainstream science and

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how they will often not touch psy they

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will not touch near-death experiences

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they will not touch out-of-bot

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experiences they will not touch supposed

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alien contact because that seems all too

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woo to uh you know outside the

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mainstream that they just sort of de

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facto assume it can't be real

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must be delusion or you know fraudulent

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people or whatever so he he you know

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definitely aims some critique against

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that community the mainstream scientific

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community but he equally is critical of

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ufology historically that quickly jumps

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to the conclusion that these are

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extraterrestrials arriving in physical

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craft from

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andromeda or whatever and

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and ignoring all the data that is

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outlier data to that hypothesis and

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basically skewing the data ultimately

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and in some ways it's only more recent

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studies like the free study that we'll

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talk about tonight that kind of has put

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into um proper perspective

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the nature of the phenomena in general

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excellent all right well let's jump

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right into it i think we're going to

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kind of unpack some of those things that

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we just talked about even further uh the

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first clip that i've got queued up here

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is going to be from joseph burks

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and uh this is

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kind of a midstream clip but we chose

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joseph burks because of his uh deep

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background and in the sort of

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traditional kind of c5 also what he has

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deemed human

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uh initiated contact events or heists uh

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that's the term that he uses for for ce5

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but he's got a lot of field experience

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with this and i thought it would be good

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to start with here and listen to some of

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the things that uh that he and his group

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experienced through that particular

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modality so let me get that started

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90s as part of this so-called ce5

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initiative i'll be going to remote

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locations we'd use thought projection

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and various meditation techniques uh to

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uh actually communicate with the

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intelligence behind the ufo phenomena

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and believe it or not

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on numerous occasions these objects and

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these intelligences came very close to

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us

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and on occasion we could signal with

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lights and the ufos would signal back

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in mexico i saw an enormous triangular

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shaped craft that came out between the

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volcanoes

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and it was amazing experience so these

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things are i hot you know i find

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highly credible i've been doing it for

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many years and i encourage other people

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to be open to the possibilities of

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contact and communication with ufo

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intelligences this is

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all right so there he's just relaying an

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experience one of many that he's had out

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in the field

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where through meditation uh through i

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think even signaling he and other

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stories talks about they had like a

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flashlight that they would use

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uh

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you know that craft and orbs all these

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things would appear

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uh and and not in that clip but others

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that i listened to he talked uh and

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addressed as well uh in some of these

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experiences

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uh not everyone in the group would see

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the same thing

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and you hear that from time to time in

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the literature as well so exo this is

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kind of again what the community knows

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to be as c5 that human initiated contact

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uh

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what is your take on this modality what

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what's happening here are lots of facets

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to this and there's also a lot of

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baggage with it too a lot of folks have

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kind of a knee jerk like oh we should

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never be doing that and other folks like

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yeah it's totally fine i do it every

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week and i've always had a positive

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experience what what's your take on this

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one

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yeah i'm glad you framed it with that

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sort of you know pre uh sort of you know

282
00:10:25,110 --> 00:10:23,120
ramble there because

283
00:10:27,190 --> 00:10:25,120
it is a an interesting topic for

284
00:10:29,030 --> 00:10:27,200
numerous reasons um

285
00:10:30,630 --> 00:10:29,040
so a couple things number one uh joe

286
00:10:31,990 --> 00:10:30,640
burks is a friend of mine and i've

287
00:10:34,069 --> 00:10:32,000
talked to him numerous times on the

288
00:10:36,230 --> 00:10:34,079
phone and uh just sort of

289
00:10:38,870 --> 00:10:36,240
he's a wealth of information from the

290
00:10:39,670 --> 00:10:38,880
you know the the historic days of cece

291
00:10:43,990 --> 00:10:39,680
and

292
00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:44,000
much

293
00:10:47,350 --> 00:10:45,760
uh you know he was the generation prior

294
00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:47,360
to us who really

295
00:10:50,949 --> 00:10:49,120
you know put his career and his life

296
00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:50,959
kind of on the line to go and pursue

297
00:10:55,670 --> 00:10:52,720
this and and and

298
00:10:57,269 --> 00:10:55,680
he um you know really focused on

299
00:10:59,190 --> 00:10:57,279
being around what he called prime

300
00:11:01,269 --> 00:10:59,200
contactees and these are the people that

301
00:11:03,910 --> 00:11:01,279
he he identified as

302
00:11:06,310 --> 00:11:03,920
usually since birth uh if not since

303
00:11:08,790 --> 00:11:06,320
birth then definitely by adolescence

304
00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:08,800
they've begun to have contact with these

305
00:11:12,069 --> 00:11:10,800
others whoever they are right

306
00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:12,079
and that

307
00:11:16,790 --> 00:11:14,320
even when they have certain practices

308
00:11:17,910 --> 00:11:16,800
they use like meditation they've often

309
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:17,920
been

310
00:11:20,710 --> 00:11:19,360
they looking back they realize they've

311
00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:20,720
been encouraged in those kind of

312
00:11:25,269 --> 00:11:23,200
practices to develop meditative skills

313
00:11:28,470 --> 00:11:25,279
so it can become a

314
00:11:30,790 --> 00:11:28,480
a mode of contact um in the future

315
00:11:32,870 --> 00:11:30,800
um yeah and like you said there's a lot

316
00:11:34,389 --> 00:11:32,880
of baggage with ce5 because because of

317
00:11:36,150 --> 00:11:34,399
steven greer

318
00:11:37,829 --> 00:11:36,160
and uh

319
00:11:39,430 --> 00:11:37,839
you know on the one hand i'm i'm

320
00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:39,440
thankful for the contribution stephen

321
00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:42,160
greer made but i i definitely think uh

322
00:11:47,509 --> 00:11:45,040
he's you know brought some

323
00:11:49,829 --> 00:11:47,519
shame on the community uh more recently

324
00:11:51,750 --> 00:11:49,839
and and is kind of off track a little

325
00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:51,760
bit and it's unfortunate because i think

326
00:11:57,670 --> 00:11:53,200
ce5

327
00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:57,680
is a unique uh kind of contact modality

328
00:12:00,310 --> 00:11:59,120
because

329
00:12:02,550 --> 00:12:00,320
you know that one of the questions i'm

330
00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:02,560
really interested in is like how many

331
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:04,800
different groups of others are there how

332
00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:06,880
many different sources are behind the

333
00:12:11,030 --> 00:12:09,360
ufo phenomenon this totality that we

334
00:12:12,949 --> 00:12:11,040
reference but you know it may very well

335
00:12:14,389 --> 00:12:12,959
be different groups with different

336
00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:14,399
sources

337
00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:16,880
and in terms of like positive negative

338
00:12:21,590 --> 00:12:20,240
neutral the vast majority of the data

339
00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:21,600
and i've looked at a lot of it and i've

340
00:12:25,269 --> 00:12:23,279
talked to people like joe and a friend

341
00:12:27,190 --> 00:12:25,279
of ours james ian doley

342
00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:27,200
and it seems like

343
00:12:31,829 --> 00:12:30,079
well into the high 90 percentage

344
00:12:34,550 --> 00:12:31,839
uh comes down to very positive

345
00:12:36,790 --> 00:12:34,560
encounters and the few cases where i am

346
00:12:39,110 --> 00:12:36,800
aware of some you know a couple outlier

347
00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:39,120
negative cases i think there were

348
00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:41,440
extenuating circumstances in those

349
00:12:46,230 --> 00:12:43,600
particular cases that make me think

350
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:46,240
there was more than just the normal ce5

351
00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:48,160
kind of or heist

352
00:12:51,590 --> 00:12:50,480
kind of protocol involved that may have

353
00:12:53,269 --> 00:12:51,600
caused some

354
00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:53,279
negative interaction because as we've

355
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:54,480
talked about before and i've talked

356
00:12:58,069 --> 00:12:56,160
about on point of convergence

357
00:13:00,310 --> 00:12:58,079
the energy you bring the intentionality

358
00:13:03,509 --> 00:13:00,320
you bring really matters in these kind

359
00:13:05,910 --> 00:13:03,519
of subtle reality kind of states

360
00:13:06,949 --> 00:13:05,920
so you know and and joe burks talks

361
00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:06,959
about

362
00:13:11,509 --> 00:13:09,120
these others asking them to prepare

363
00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:11,519
themselves to meditate beforehand

364
00:13:15,269 --> 00:13:13,279
even groups that he was involved with in

365
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:15,279
south america they were encouraged by

366
00:13:19,750 --> 00:13:17,440
these others according to him

367
00:13:22,069 --> 00:13:19,760
to take on a vegetarian diet you know

368
00:13:24,949 --> 00:13:22,079
and me being a vegetarian i resonate

369
00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:24,959
with that and it's very interesting and

370
00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:26,480
and a couple of times when they let

371
00:13:30,949 --> 00:13:28,720
someone come they kind of didn't have

372
00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:30,959
that mature in energy and not wasn't

373
00:13:35,030 --> 00:13:33,120
that consciously focused

374
00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:35,040
actually the the the entities or the

375
00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:37,040
ufos didn't show up on those couple

376
00:13:41,110 --> 00:13:39,519
occasions so it does seem like what we

377
00:13:42,629 --> 00:13:41,120
bring to the table matters it's part of

378
00:13:42,970 --> 00:13:42,639
the interaction

379
00:13:43,990 --> 00:13:42,980
um

380
00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:44,000
[Music]

381
00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:45,600
and yeah and the last thing i'd say is

382
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:47,680
was with joe burks himself he's talked

383
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:49,040
about what he calls like a virtual

384
00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:51,360
reality model that he thinks that

385
00:13:55,750 --> 00:13:54,000
they're not necessarily you know 3d like

386
00:13:57,829 --> 00:13:55,760
you can knock on it and hear a ping

387
00:13:59,189 --> 00:13:57,839
sound on the metal not that that doesn't

388
00:14:00,230 --> 00:13:59,199
happen they seem to have the ability to

389
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:00,240
sort of

390
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:02,880
shift the the frequency the modality to

391
00:14:06,949 --> 00:14:04,880
sort of take on a 3d you know physical

392
00:14:08,310 --> 00:14:06,959
object kind of appearance but from his

393
00:14:10,150 --> 00:14:08,320
perspective a lot of time it's more like

394
00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:10,160
a virtual reality being projected into

395
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:12,240
the sky and that kind of thing and like

396
00:14:15,269 --> 00:14:14,480
you say situations definitely exist

397
00:14:17,509 --> 00:14:15,279
where

398
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:17,519
one person sees it one doesn't so many

399
00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:20,399
fascinating uh aspects of this c5 slash

400
00:14:24,069 --> 00:14:22,079
heist

401
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:24,079
yeah well i love listening to the

402
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:26,800
practitioners i'm not myself one i've

403
00:14:30,310 --> 00:14:28,160
not tried it

404
00:14:32,710 --> 00:14:30,320
at least with any concerted effort but

405
00:14:34,389 --> 00:14:32,720
i'm very fascinated when i hear of those

406
00:14:35,509 --> 00:14:34,399
who have and particularly those who do

407
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:35,519
frequently

408
00:14:40,069 --> 00:14:38,320
um where i come at this particular topic

409
00:14:41,189 --> 00:14:40,079
is you know dipping into my religious

410
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:41,199
background

411
00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:42,000
through

412
00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:44,399
you know prayer and and meditation in

413
00:14:47,829 --> 00:14:45,760
and of itself

414
00:14:50,550 --> 00:14:47,839
and uh you know in the christian

415
00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:50,560
tradition uh you know prayer does take

416
00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:52,720
on a lot of different forms depending on

417
00:14:55,030 --> 00:14:53,839
you know kind of the subset of

418
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:55,040
christianity that you might find

419
00:14:59,750 --> 00:14:58,320
yourself in but you know it interests me

420
00:15:02,550 --> 00:14:59,760
that

421
00:15:04,949 --> 00:15:02,560
there is some type of uh qualitative

422
00:15:06,870 --> 00:15:04,959
difference seemingly and maybe there

423
00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:06,880
isn't but from my perspective there

424
00:15:10,310 --> 00:15:08,959
seems to be a type of qualitative

425
00:15:12,389 --> 00:15:10,320
difference between

426
00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:12,399
uh you know a community let's say a

427
00:15:17,670 --> 00:15:15,120
congregation uh of believers who are

428
00:15:19,990 --> 00:15:17,680
praying uh for a specific thing

429
00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:20,000
uh and and you don't have at least in my

430
00:15:23,670 --> 00:15:21,440
experience and and we've talked about

431
00:15:26,069 --> 00:15:23,680
this uh you know kind of off off the air

432
00:15:28,629 --> 00:15:26,079
before you know no orbs have appeared

433
00:15:31,829 --> 00:15:28,639
you know and no uh angelic beings have

434
00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:31,839
appeared in response to those uh efforts

435
00:15:35,030 --> 00:15:33,600
so you know i find that that's

436
00:15:37,509 --> 00:15:35,040
interesting only because it's the

437
00:15:39,670 --> 00:15:37,519
closest corollary that i have

438
00:15:40,949 --> 00:15:39,680
to something that looks like

439
00:15:42,629 --> 00:15:40,959
c5

440
00:15:46,470 --> 00:15:42,639
so you know what i would be interested

441
00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:46,480
to see is a kind of a broad study of uh

442
00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:48,880
similar you know sort of practices

443
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:50,480
mental practices

444
00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:51,600
uh

445
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:53,519
like prayer and meditation that are that

446
00:15:59,110 --> 00:15:56,399
are embarked on by groups of people and

447
00:16:00,949 --> 00:15:59,120
their expectations and what

448
00:16:02,710 --> 00:16:00,959
occurs in the

449
00:16:05,749 --> 00:16:02,720
uh both the physical

450
00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:05,759
uh space and mental space of those who

451
00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:08,800
are in engaged in the act and you know i

452
00:16:13,110 --> 00:16:10,000
know there are lots of different

453
00:16:14,949 --> 00:16:13,120
phenomenon that appear uh and oftentimes

454
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:14,959
they are

455
00:16:19,910 --> 00:16:17,600
or in many ways they they they do

456
00:16:21,990 --> 00:16:19,920
kind of mimic or mirror

457
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:22,000
to some degree the expectations of the

458
00:16:27,189 --> 00:16:24,160
practitioner and so you know i'm

459
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:27,199
interested with from when looking at ce5

460
00:16:31,269 --> 00:16:28,880
when you're going up to a mountain and

461
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:31,279
you're and you're intending to engage

462
00:16:35,110 --> 00:16:32,160
with

463
00:16:36,389 --> 00:16:35,120
you know a non-human intelligence and

464
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:36,399
traditionally

465
00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:38,720
you understand those engagements to take

466
00:16:43,749 --> 00:16:41,360
the forms of orbs or triangles or

467
00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:43,759
saucers or whatever and those things

468
00:16:48,069 --> 00:16:46,000
also happen to appear

469
00:16:50,389 --> 00:16:48,079
you know is that confirmation bias like

470
00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:50,399
what what is really happening

471
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:52,800
in that experience and and with the

472
00:16:57,749 --> 00:16:55,600
religious devotee you know if if if

473
00:16:59,590 --> 00:16:57,759
they're not praying with the expectation

474
00:17:02,069 --> 00:16:59,600
of an angel appearing

475
00:17:05,110 --> 00:17:02,079
and an angel never does appear you know

476
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:05,120
then maybe it's the same modality and

477
00:17:09,189 --> 00:17:06,480
the same result it's just that they're

478
00:17:12,949 --> 00:17:09,199
not they're not expecting a kind of uh

479
00:17:14,870 --> 00:17:12,959
epiphenomenon to occur you know in their

480
00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:14,880
awareness in their in their spatial

481
00:17:18,390 --> 00:17:16,000
awareness

482
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:18,400
yeah it's interesting to make that you

483
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:19,679
know connection between religious

484
00:17:25,350 --> 00:17:21,839
history or religious experience

485
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:25,360
and ce5 and to add another

486
00:17:29,029 --> 00:17:26,720
slice to that

487
00:17:31,270 --> 00:17:29,039
uh i've read some and and studied some

488
00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:31,280
of the parapsychological research

489
00:17:35,350 --> 00:17:33,600
around healing intentionality so here

490
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:35,360
we're taking it out of c5 or you know

491
00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:36,960
we're taking out of religious history

492
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:38,160
we're just saying

493
00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:40,400
they've done studies around

494
00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:42,000
psi and

495
00:17:46,470 --> 00:17:44,960
how does it work when people are praying

496
00:17:47,990 --> 00:17:46,480
with intentionality for someone's

497
00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:48,000
healing someone who has cancer or some

498
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:49,280
sort of disease

499
00:17:53,430 --> 00:17:51,520
and what they found again this is just

500
00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:53,440
the data right this is not like what

501
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:54,960
they wish was the case this is what the

502
00:17:58,789 --> 00:17:57,200
data says that it really does make a

503
00:18:00,549 --> 00:17:58,799
difference when

504
00:18:02,630 --> 00:18:00,559
people with the right intentionality and

505
00:18:05,029 --> 00:18:02,640
a certain level of consciousness are

506
00:18:07,590 --> 00:18:05,039
actively engaged in praying for someone

507
00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:07,600
and when the person being prayed for

508
00:18:12,390 --> 00:18:10,480
is also open to it and engaging in the

509
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:12,400
process as well that's when you get the

510
00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:13,760
most

511
00:18:17,590 --> 00:18:16,400
noticeable results in terms of that

512
00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:17,600
entire

513
00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:20,960
prayer and being receptive to prayer

514
00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:22,640
impacting the actual physiological

515
00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:24,160
condition

516
00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:26,240
and diagnosis of the person involved

517
00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:27,600
it's not to say it works all the time

518
00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:29,440
that's not what i'm saying but when it

519
00:18:34,870 --> 00:18:31,440
does work those seem to work at a

520
00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:34,880
greater level more often than when it's

521
00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:37,360
people who are not really uh that

522
00:18:40,950 --> 00:18:39,200
consciously you know focused on what

523
00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:40,960
they're doing or people are not praying

524
00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:43,200
or the person who's being prayed for

525
00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:45,440
is negative or cynical or whatever so

526
00:18:49,590 --> 00:18:47,440
these these issues really do matter

527
00:18:51,590 --> 00:18:49,600
these different elements these variables

528
00:18:54,070 --> 00:18:51,600
and again it points to something about

529
00:18:56,630 --> 00:18:54,080
reality what is it about c5 and

530
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:56,640
religious history and you know

531
00:19:00,630 --> 00:18:58,320
parapsychological research around the

532
00:19:04,630 --> 00:19:00,640
power of prayer with psy and whatnot

533
00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:04,640
that shows that reality itself bends to

534
00:19:08,789 --> 00:19:06,960
the will and the intentionality and the

535
00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:08,799
consciousness of the

536
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:11,120
conscious agents to use a donald hoffman

537
00:19:15,750 --> 00:19:12,080
phrase

538
00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:15,760
that are actively engaged in the process

539
00:19:19,990 --> 00:19:17,760
the word that came to mind for me is uh

540
00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:20,000
participatory you know that

541
00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:22,400
when you're talking about intentionality

542
00:19:27,029 --> 00:19:24,160
so there is this kind of participatory

543
00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:27,039
field in a way that seems to be present

544
00:19:32,549 --> 00:19:30,480
that acts as a kind of amplifier perhaps

545
00:19:34,549 --> 00:19:32,559
uh for

546
00:19:35,669 --> 00:19:34,559
the experience or a heightened

547
00:19:38,150 --> 00:19:35,679
experience

548
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:38,160
and uh to me these are avenues well

549
00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:41,360
worth pursuing and studying uh

550
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:43,280
and and i think are

551
00:19:47,350 --> 00:19:44,960
particularly helpful to think of because

552
00:19:49,110 --> 00:19:47,360
we traditionally think of uh

553
00:19:51,270 --> 00:19:49,120
communication with a non-human

554
00:19:54,549 --> 00:19:51,280
intelligence and we think of seti

555
00:19:56,310 --> 00:19:54,559
uh you know where we're doing the radio

556
00:19:58,070 --> 00:19:56,320
signals in the universe and we're

557
00:19:59,669 --> 00:19:58,080
listening with the headphones and we're

558
00:20:01,350 --> 00:19:59,679
we're waiting for like a billboard to

559
00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:01,360
come across the sky you know we're here

560
00:20:06,070 --> 00:20:03,840
everybody you know something that is a

561
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:06,080
traditional type of communication we

562
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:08,640
send out a signal it comes back

563
00:20:12,310 --> 00:20:10,559
and it's very much a like a radio

564
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:12,320
conversation

565
00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:14,880
and and it reminds me that uh that's not

566
00:20:20,070 --> 00:20:17,360
necessarily how it will take place or

567
00:20:22,070 --> 00:20:20,080
how it will occur and that what what may

568
00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:22,080
occur in fact is something on a more

569
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:25,120
fundamental deeper level that really

570
00:20:29,190 --> 00:20:26,559
transcends

571
00:20:31,029 --> 00:20:29,200
language and after all language is a

572
00:20:35,990 --> 00:20:31,039
layer on top of

573
00:20:38,149 --> 00:20:36,000
experience that we apply to engage with

574
00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:38,159
one another there are all kinds of ways

575
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:40,000
that we communicate without using

576
00:20:43,830 --> 00:20:41,200
language

577
00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:43,840
and so this net next clip that i'll kind

578
00:20:47,510 --> 00:20:45,440
of queue up

579
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:47,520
speaks to this directly

580
00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:50,400
this came from lou elizondo

581
00:20:53,430 --> 00:20:52,240
on the show on our show calling all

582
00:20:55,830 --> 00:20:53,440
beings

583
00:20:57,270 --> 00:20:55,840
last week when i asked lou

584
00:20:59,029 --> 00:20:57,280
about

585
00:21:01,350 --> 00:20:59,039
the communication methods of

586
00:21:02,549 --> 00:21:01,360
communication that had been tried

587
00:21:07,029 --> 00:21:02,559
with these

588
00:21:08,950 --> 00:21:07,039
they are and uh you know intentionality

589
00:21:11,350 --> 00:21:08,960
and what we would expect to see if we

590
00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:11,360
decide to get more engaged and be more

591
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:14,000
proactive in reaching out to whatever

592
00:21:18,549 --> 00:21:16,559
these entities happen to be so let's

593
00:21:20,149 --> 00:21:18,559
listen to his response to that

594
00:21:20,950 --> 00:21:20,159
i can figure out what what you mean by

595
00:21:22,710 --> 00:21:20,960
that

596
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:22,720
um communication doesn't have to be

597
00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:26,320
verbal and i think that uh when we

598
00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:31,600
when we look at something like this um

599
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:33,600
case in point i've used this a lot

600
00:21:36,470 --> 00:21:34,720
when there's a russian bear

601
00:21:37,510 --> 00:21:36,480
reconnaissance aircraft off the coast of

602
00:21:38,870 --> 00:21:37,520
alaska

603
00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:38,880
okay it's not communicating with it's

604
00:21:41,830 --> 00:21:40,480
not squawking it's not not getting on

605
00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:41,840
the com saying hi guys we're here we're

606
00:21:45,669 --> 00:21:43,440
just gonna surveil you

607
00:21:48,390 --> 00:21:45,679
what do we do we we we scramble two

608
00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:48,400
f-22s out of out of alaska and we go on

609
00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:50,159
an intercept mission now we don't talk

610
00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:51,520
to them but we just get really really

611
00:21:54,870 --> 00:21:52,960
close and let them know hey buddy if you

612
00:21:56,470 --> 00:21:54,880
step over this line bad things are going

613
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:56,480
to happen

614
00:21:59,830 --> 00:21:58,320
are we communicating intent you're damn

615
00:22:02,789 --> 00:21:59,840
right we are and are they commuting

616
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:02,799
intent absolutely they are right

617
00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:04,720
all right so i think that was a great

618
00:22:09,669 --> 00:22:08,480
point uh reminding us that uh when

619
00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:09,679
uh

620
00:22:16,549 --> 00:22:15,200
usda moultrie were responding to the

621
00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:16,559
congressional

622
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:19,280
uh you know hearing questions about you

623
00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:20,320
know have we made attempts to

624
00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:21,520
communicate and they said no you know we

625
00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:24,000
haven't done that uh that there are all

626
00:22:28,549 --> 00:22:26,880
kinds of communication that that exists

627
00:22:31,909 --> 00:22:28,559
forms and factions of communication that

628
00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:31,919
are not traditional you know let me call

629
00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:34,880
you up on the on the the jet phone and

630
00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:36,400
i'm going to ask you to identify

631
00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:37,760
yourself so

632
00:22:41,190 --> 00:22:39,440
i think that's really helpful

633
00:22:42,789 --> 00:22:41,200
particularly because we often really

634
00:22:45,190 --> 00:22:42,799
anthropomorphize

635
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:45,200
the ways in which we

636
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:47,280
think or plan to communicate with

637
00:22:50,390 --> 00:22:49,200
whatever this might be

638
00:22:52,390 --> 00:22:50,400
but exo

639
00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:52,400
you know thinking that through

640
00:22:57,029 --> 00:22:54,720
you know what are you know what's kind

641
00:22:59,110 --> 00:22:57,039
of the scope of non-verbal communication

642
00:23:01,110 --> 00:22:59,120
and what does that kind of imply about

643
00:23:03,990 --> 00:23:01,120
the way we might interact with

644
00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:04,000
whatever this happens to be

645
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:05,200
right well i would say a couple of

646
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:06,960
things on very opposite ends of the

647
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:08,799
spectrum so to begin with what louis

648
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:11,280
lozando was talking about there

649
00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:14,559
you know so in an arena of warfare or

650
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:16,080
you know territorial rights and that

651
00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:17,360
kind of thing

652
00:23:20,230 --> 00:23:18,640
you know different there are different

653
00:23:22,470 --> 00:23:20,240
international

654
00:23:23,990 --> 00:23:22,480
you know rules in terms of

655
00:23:25,590 --> 00:23:24,000
what you do and what you don't do and

656
00:23:27,110 --> 00:23:25,600
what lines you can cross and what lines

657
00:23:29,590 --> 00:23:27,120
you don't cross and like you said what

658
00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:29,600
are you signaling in terms of intent

659
00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:31,200
by not doing something you know an

660
00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:33,120
aircraft flying without proper

661
00:23:38,789 --> 00:23:36,799
identification right or lights flashing

662
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:38,799
says either there's a technical problem

663
00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:40,559
or somebody maybe wants to crash his

664
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:41,760
plane into

665
00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:43,200
you know the world trade center or

666
00:23:46,149 --> 00:23:44,480
something you know like it can mean a

667
00:23:48,310 --> 00:23:46,159
couple different things and very quickly

668
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:48,320
they will try to figure out which one is

669
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:51,840
the case here right

670
00:23:56,870 --> 00:23:54,080
and i would also say

671
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:56,880
while i understand what he's saying

672
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,559
that's one thing when you have human

673
00:24:01,669 --> 00:24:00,240
nation states right and a certain

674
00:24:04,630 --> 00:24:01,679
understanding

675
00:24:06,870 --> 00:24:04,640
of international rules of law and and

676
00:24:10,390 --> 00:24:06,880
airspace and that kind of thing

677
00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:10,400
i'm much more cautious when i would

678
00:24:13,190 --> 00:24:12,080
when it comes to jumping to conclusions

679
00:24:14,870 --> 00:24:13,200
about what

680
00:24:16,789 --> 00:24:14,880
uap that are not necessarily

681
00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:16,799
conventionally human

682
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:18,400
might be signaling you know so for

683
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:20,000
instance some people

684
00:24:23,990 --> 00:24:21,120
hear about

685
00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:24,000
ufos showing up and dismantling our our

686
00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:27,600
nuclear you know arsenal and taking

687
00:24:31,269 --> 00:24:29,520
silos offline and whatnot so we couldn't

688
00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:31,279
respond if the soviets had happened to

689
00:24:34,630 --> 00:24:33,120
fire at us

690
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:34,640
in the cold war of course we know the

691
00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:36,000
same things happened to the soviets so

692
00:24:40,549 --> 00:24:37,919
it's not like these ufos are playing

693
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:40,559
favorites right um

694
00:24:44,230 --> 00:24:41,840
but some people will look at that and

695
00:24:46,149 --> 00:24:44,240
say oh wow that's that's clearly

696
00:24:47,830 --> 00:24:46,159
a hostile act and if the soviets were

697
00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:47,840
able to do that we would interpret it or

698
00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:49,760
the chinese or whatever

699
00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:51,840
around if they did that we would say

700
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:53,200
they're clearly

701
00:24:56,310 --> 00:24:55,039
doing a dry run to see if they can take

702
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:56,320
down our nuclear arsenal so that when

703
00:25:00,549 --> 00:24:58,720
they attack us we're defenseless right

704
00:25:02,470 --> 00:25:00,559
that makes sense that's logical from a

705
00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:02,480
nation-state perspective

706
00:25:06,470 --> 00:25:04,960
you can expect to go and do that to uh

707
00:25:08,230 --> 00:25:06,480
uh you know an enemy somewhere on the

708
00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:08,240
other side of the planet and not have

709
00:25:11,669 --> 00:25:10,080
them interpret that as a hostile act

710
00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:11,679
very clearly it is

711
00:25:15,590 --> 00:25:13,120
but

712
00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:15,600
these are supposedly non-human

713
00:25:19,350 --> 00:25:18,480
intelligences who may just look at it

714
00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:19,360
and say

715
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:21,840
listen you you humans are insane you've

716
00:25:26,230 --> 00:25:24,640
got these this enough nuclear arsenal to

717
00:25:27,510 --> 00:25:26,240
destroy the planet you know several

718
00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:27,520
times over

719
00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:29,200
and not just your own civilization but

720
00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:30,880
taking out so much of the biosphere with

721
00:25:33,510 --> 00:25:31,600
it

722
00:25:35,269 --> 00:25:33,520
we're just wanting to

723
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:35,279
either send you a coded message that's

724
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:36,799
not a good idea

725
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:39,360
or we are testing our capacity to stop

726
00:25:43,269 --> 00:25:41,279
it if a nuclear war ever were to take

727
00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:43,279
place right so there's different ways

728
00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:45,760
you interpret the same event based on

729
00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:47,679
who the players are and whether or not

730
00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:49,760
they're human or not and even with what

731
00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:51,200
i just said to you just them that's

732
00:25:55,430 --> 00:25:52,880
still me making guesses right that's

733
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:55,440
still an educated guess an estimate of

734
00:25:59,510 --> 00:25:57,840
what it might mean

735
00:26:00,950 --> 00:25:59,520
there might be a third option a fourth

736
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:00,960
the fifth that i can't even conceive of

737
00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:03,520
nor can you nor can we from an you know

738
00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:06,240
anthropocentric kind of perspective so

739
00:26:10,789 --> 00:26:08,320
yes absolutely

740
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:10,799
uh communication can be non-verbal but

741
00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:12,320
we just have to be very careful about

742
00:26:17,110 --> 00:26:14,640
about being too dogmatic about what the

743
00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:17,120
interpretation of that is

744
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:18,320
the other thing i would say on the other

745
00:26:20,710 --> 00:26:19,760
side of the spectrum

746
00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:20,720
is

747
00:26:26,070 --> 00:26:22,320
how much

748
00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:26,080
historically in the ufo phenomenon

749
00:26:29,909 --> 00:26:27,760
that the communication ends up being

750
00:26:31,430 --> 00:26:29,919
telepathic in nature so it's not like

751
00:26:33,990 --> 00:26:31,440
people hear

752
00:26:36,789 --> 00:26:34,000
voices audibly they just hear direct

753
00:26:39,029 --> 00:26:36,799
communication in their minds so to speak

754
00:26:41,269 --> 00:26:39,039
and it's not even just

755
00:26:43,269 --> 00:26:41,279
you know spoken words strung together in

756
00:26:45,909 --> 00:26:43,279
a sentence that they sort of hear in

757
00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:45,919
their mind it's more like often the case

758
00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:48,400
it's a complete like emotional relay so

759
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:49,600
the entire

760
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:51,600
experience of these others is now

761
00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:53,200
communicated so you know exactly how

762
00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:54,640
they feel

763
00:26:58,390 --> 00:26:56,159
there's no in some ways there's less

764
00:27:00,630 --> 00:26:58,400
room for misinterpretation because it's

765
00:27:02,789 --> 00:27:00,640
less reliant on tone of voice and body

766
00:27:05,830 --> 00:27:02,799
language and facial expression

767
00:27:07,909 --> 00:27:05,840
you really get the first hand

768
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:07,919
communication as if you're plugged into

769
00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:10,080
their mind at that point time and space

770
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:12,320
and two minds seem to be not in the

771
00:27:17,669 --> 00:27:14,880
picture it's just direct communication

772
00:27:20,230 --> 00:27:17,679
uh soul to soul so to speak so that's

773
00:27:21,909 --> 00:27:20,240
that's fascinating to me that's a key

774
00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:21,919
aspect of

775
00:27:26,310 --> 00:27:24,640
not just ufo encounters but also

776
00:27:28,149 --> 00:27:26,320
near death experiences out of body

777
00:27:29,909 --> 00:27:28,159
experiences as well

778
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:29,919
and of course what's fascinating about

779
00:27:33,909 --> 00:27:31,760
it is not just that these others

780
00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:33,919
communicate with us telepathically but

781
00:27:37,669 --> 00:27:35,520
we seem to have the capacity to

782
00:27:39,510 --> 00:27:37,679
naturally be able to communicate that

783
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:39,520
way as well so it's not like they're

784
00:27:42,310 --> 00:27:41,520
just projecting some sort of technology

785
00:27:44,549 --> 00:27:42,320
on us

786
00:27:46,389 --> 00:27:44,559
it may be something again about the

787
00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:46,399
substrate of reality being based in

788
00:27:52,630 --> 00:27:49,200
consciousness that all sentient life has

789
00:27:54,549 --> 00:27:52,640
this capacity at root sort of you know

790
00:27:56,389 --> 00:27:54,559
innately to be able to do this and we

791
00:27:58,470 --> 00:27:56,399
just have either lost the capacity over

792
00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:58,480
time as we developed you know spoken

793
00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:00,640
languages over time or maybe we're

794
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:03,840
evolving towards this capacity

795
00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:05,120
but either way it's very very

796
00:28:09,909 --> 00:28:07,600
fascinating

797
00:28:11,669 --> 00:28:09,919
i think about the

798
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:11,679
sort of loss

799
00:28:17,750 --> 00:28:14,720
lossiness of our communication methods

800
00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:17,760
you know if we think about uh

801
00:28:21,190 --> 00:28:18,880
you know if you're sitting across from

802
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:21,200
someone in a room and you can't you

803
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:23,360
can't text with them or talk with them

804
00:28:28,710 --> 00:28:25,200
or have a conversation your

805
00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:28,720
communication is entirely non-verbal

806
00:28:32,549 --> 00:28:30,080
you know so you're just looking at how

807
00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:32,559
they're physically uh presenting

808
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:34,240
themselves to you whether they're

809
00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:35,760
looking at you whether they're using any

810
00:28:39,350 --> 00:28:37,200
kind of hand gestures

811
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:39,360
so take it at another to another level

812
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:40,640
from that let's say you can't see the

813
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:42,720
other person but you can text with them

814
00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:44,640
you know we all know uh through twitter

815
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:46,480
and through text messages that have gone

816
00:28:52,389 --> 00:28:49,200
awry uh that you send a text and it's

817
00:28:53,830 --> 00:28:52,399
completely misinterpreted uh we try to

818
00:28:56,310 --> 00:28:53,840
you know prevent that by using

819
00:28:57,510 --> 00:28:56,320
capitalization punctuation even emoji to

820
00:29:00,070 --> 00:28:57,520
try to convey

821
00:29:02,149 --> 00:29:00,080
our intent but inevitably it's

822
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:02,159
completely misunderstood or it can't be

823
00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:03,440
misunderstood

824
00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:04,880
uh then you can have a phone

825
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:06,320
conversation with someone you know you

826
00:29:10,230 --> 00:29:08,159
don't have that text that you you're

827
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:10,240
you're really doing in a way what we're

828
00:29:13,669 --> 00:29:12,159
doing here and except we're taking it to

829
00:29:14,389 --> 00:29:13,679
a level beyond that we can see each

830
00:29:16,389 --> 00:29:14,399
other

831
00:29:18,389 --> 00:29:16,399
and then if you're with a person

832
00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:18,399
in person having a conversation it

833
00:29:22,470 --> 00:29:20,000
changes the dynamic even further you've

834
00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:22,480
got the non-verbal the verbal the

835
00:29:25,669 --> 00:29:24,240
proximate you know all these different

836
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:25,679
things that are happening in shared

837
00:29:29,029 --> 00:29:26,480
space

838
00:29:30,789 --> 00:29:29,039
but anyone who's had a life a long time

839
00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:30,799
relationship with someone will tell you

840
00:29:34,789 --> 00:29:32,640
you can be in close contact with someone

841
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:34,799
have a communication have a have a

842
00:29:38,710 --> 00:29:36,559
conversation and

843
00:29:40,389 --> 00:29:38,720
completely come away with

844
00:29:43,029 --> 00:29:40,399
both parties totally misunderstanding

845
00:29:46,549 --> 00:29:43,039
each other so communication takes a lot

846
00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:46,559
of different forms and the telepathic

847
00:29:49,750 --> 00:29:48,480
sort of mode of communication

848
00:29:51,830 --> 00:29:49,760
to me

849
00:29:54,630 --> 00:29:51,840
it does sound a little bit more pure you

850
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:54,640
know it's a little bit less lossy

851
00:29:59,510 --> 00:29:56,240
because you're really getting that that

852
00:30:00,789 --> 00:29:59,520
full immersive context but even as you

853
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:00,799
pointed out

854
00:30:06,630 --> 00:30:03,840
with the example that he's providing

855
00:30:08,870 --> 00:30:06,640
there's no reason for us to assume that

856
00:30:09,990 --> 00:30:08,880
because we are doing certain things with

857
00:30:15,269 --> 00:30:10,000
our

858
00:30:17,510 --> 00:30:15,279
or whatever other you know uh

859
00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:17,520
military equipment that we're using

860
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:19,520
in those fields of operation

861
00:30:24,870 --> 00:30:21,840
that whatever these craft are doing in

862
00:30:27,029 --> 00:30:24,880
response that we can interpret it in in

863
00:30:30,710 --> 00:30:27,039
the same way that we would interpret an

864
00:30:32,230 --> 00:30:30,720
enemy uh fighter or or even an ally

865
00:30:34,630 --> 00:30:32,240
fighter you know we're not necessarily

866
00:30:36,870 --> 00:30:34,640
dealing with the same playbook here uh

867
00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:36,880
and for all we know uh

868
00:30:40,630 --> 00:30:39,200
whatever that other object is doing it

869
00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:40,640
may have absolutely nothing to do with

870
00:30:44,549 --> 00:30:42,720
what we're doing we just are laying onto

871
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:44,559
it an assumption that it is related to

872
00:30:49,830 --> 00:30:47,039
something that we have tried uh you know

873
00:30:52,070 --> 00:30:49,840
and have put out there so for me this is

874
00:30:53,909 --> 00:30:52,080
a topic of uh

875
00:30:57,430 --> 00:30:53,919
you know of some concern if i can you

876
00:31:00,789 --> 00:30:57,440
know be frank uh and that is that uh

877
00:31:03,509 --> 00:31:00,799
you know if we are going to

878
00:31:05,509 --> 00:31:03,519
more proactively engage with whatever

879
00:31:06,870 --> 00:31:05,519
this happens to be whatever these others

880
00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:06,880
happen to be

881
00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:08,799
you know i'd like some level of

882
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:12,000
assurance that those engagement efforts

883
00:31:18,149 --> 00:31:16,000
uh would be well spent that uh that we

884
00:31:21,669 --> 00:31:18,159
would have some reasonable expectation

885
00:31:23,909 --> 00:31:21,679
of behavior in response that that we

886
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:23,919
could in fact understand and not

887
00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:26,880
misinterpret you know so uh

888
00:31:31,110 --> 00:31:29,440
classic examples that i can think of of

889
00:31:33,669 --> 00:31:31,120
where you know there's like an alien

890
00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:33,679
sci-fi horror movie where you know the

891
00:31:37,509 --> 00:31:36,000
human is doing one thing and the alien

892
00:31:39,350 --> 00:31:37,519
is doing something in

893
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:39,360
uh that is reciprocating whatever the

894
00:31:43,190 --> 00:31:40,960
humans doing and the humans thinking oh

895
00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:43,200
this is going to be you know a positive

896
00:31:47,750 --> 00:31:45,440
engagement here and the alien you know

897
00:31:49,990 --> 00:31:47,760
has the human for lunch or whatever so

898
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:50,000
you know totally misunderstood what was

899
00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:51,840
taking place there and

900
00:31:55,029 --> 00:31:53,760
you know for me that that certainly is a

901
00:31:57,029 --> 00:31:55,039
concern

902
00:31:59,110 --> 00:31:57,039
even though i understand that uh you

903
00:32:00,789 --> 00:31:59,120
know with the large body of evidence

904
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:00,799
that we have for kind of

905
00:32:05,029 --> 00:32:03,600
c5 and other you know contact situations

906
00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:05,039
that they've generally been pretty

907
00:32:08,549 --> 00:32:06,320
positive but it is something that i

908
00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:08,559
think we need to be you know aware of

909
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:09,679
and and

910
00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:12,000
really tackle head-on and not be shy

911
00:32:16,549 --> 00:32:14,159
about at least considering what might

912
00:32:17,509 --> 00:32:16,559
happen with any method of communication

913
00:32:19,509 --> 00:32:17,519
that we

914
00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:19,519
uh put out there

915
00:32:22,789 --> 00:32:21,120
in our attempts to engage with whatever

916
00:32:24,310 --> 00:32:22,799
this happens to be

917
00:32:26,630 --> 00:32:24,320
right and i think you know there's

918
00:32:29,110 --> 00:32:26,640
legitimate concern from people

919
00:32:31,750 --> 00:32:29,120
that has been voiced regarding

920
00:32:33,509 --> 00:32:31,760
what happens when first contact is with

921
00:32:35,509 --> 00:32:33,519
our military you know with our armed

922
00:32:37,669 --> 00:32:35,519
forces because again

923
00:32:39,990 --> 00:32:37,679
there's certain expectations and and

924
00:32:43,029 --> 00:32:40,000
sort of de facto interpretations based

925
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:43,039
on certain actions so you know showing

926
00:32:47,509 --> 00:32:45,440
up in restricted airspace again if it

927
00:32:50,070 --> 00:32:47,519
was the soviets doing or not the soviets

928
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:50,080
that's yesteryear the russians or the

929
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:52,159
chinese or somebody else

930
00:32:56,389 --> 00:32:54,000
we would interpret that as as you know a

931
00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:56,399
hostile act even potentially an act of

932
00:32:59,350 --> 00:32:58,080
war right and

933
00:33:01,269 --> 00:32:59,360
there are certain understandings that

934
00:33:03,430 --> 00:33:01,279
certain kinds of behavior is basically

935
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:03,440
considered an act of war

936
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:06,640
again i'm concerned with a military

937
00:33:11,430 --> 00:33:08,320
infrastructure that's used to that kind

938
00:33:13,110 --> 00:33:11,440
of language so the second they see that

939
00:33:14,230 --> 00:33:13,120
you know whether you with uap or

940
00:33:16,549 --> 00:33:14,240
something

941
00:33:18,310 --> 00:33:16,559
they quickly jump to aha they're clearly

942
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:18,320
showing hostility

943
00:33:23,269 --> 00:33:20,720
they're declaring an act of war whatever

944
00:33:24,950 --> 00:33:23,279
because again if you if you're

945
00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:24,960
not working within that framework

946
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:26,000
because again we're not even talking

947
00:33:28,149 --> 00:33:27,360
about a human framework we're talking

948
00:33:29,990 --> 00:33:28,159
about

949
00:33:32,149 --> 00:33:30,000
a you know

950
00:33:34,230 --> 00:33:32,159
living in 2022

951
00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:34,240
human framework with an international

952
00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:36,880
you know structure and airspace and

953
00:33:40,549 --> 00:33:39,519
things like that right and so

954
00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:40,559
it's very

955
00:33:45,190 --> 00:33:42,399
time-bound as well as place-bound and

956
00:33:48,310 --> 00:33:45,200
species-specific so it's it's jumping to

957
00:33:49,190 --> 00:33:48,320
a huge conclusion to assume that some

958
00:33:51,269 --> 00:33:49,200
you know

959
00:33:52,389 --> 00:33:51,279
other race or species or kind of

960
00:33:54,070 --> 00:33:52,399
intelligence

961
00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:54,080
will play by that rule book or even be

962
00:33:58,470 --> 00:33:55,600
aware of it right if they're coming from

963
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:58,480
a more of a non-dual perspective where

964
00:34:02,870 --> 00:34:00,480
you know borders and boundaries and

965
00:34:04,870 --> 00:34:02,880
territory and even like the separation

966
00:34:08,230 --> 00:34:04,880
between who you are and who i am

967
00:34:09,349 --> 00:34:08,240
is you know not so clear and and you

968
00:34:11,909 --> 00:34:09,359
know

969
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:11,919
solid then they may mean it in a

970
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:13,440
completely positive way you know there's

971
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:15,520
been lots of cases in in experiential

972
00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:17,040
literature where

973
00:34:20,710 --> 00:34:18,960
human beings are overwhelmed by the

974
00:34:22,550 --> 00:34:20,720
degree to which the boundaries seem to

975
00:34:25,030 --> 00:34:22,560
dissolve and so sometimes they feel like

976
00:34:27,030 --> 00:34:25,040
a loss of self almost like a feeling of

977
00:34:28,470 --> 00:34:27,040
death sometimes because

978
00:34:30,790 --> 00:34:28,480
what you've especially if you're very

979
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:30,800
identified with your executive ego

980
00:34:35,109 --> 00:34:32,639
your waking self and you have a certain

981
00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:35,119
identity around that when suddenly that

982
00:34:39,109 --> 00:34:36,800
is dissolved and you're feeling this

983
00:34:40,790 --> 00:34:39,119
other intelligence inside of you knowing

984
00:34:42,629 --> 00:34:40,800
your history knowing your most intimate

985
00:34:44,069 --> 00:34:42,639
thoughts and it's making itself

986
00:34:46,550 --> 00:34:44,079
available to you too that's just the

987
00:34:48,389 --> 00:34:46,560
nature of its existence it seems like

988
00:34:50,950 --> 00:34:48,399
then that can be very overwhelming

989
00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:50,960
so if beings like that show up we

990
00:34:54,230 --> 00:34:52,720
shouldn't expect them to play by these

991
00:34:58,150 --> 00:34:54,240
you know international

992
00:35:00,630 --> 00:34:58,160
uh rules uh around law and uh you know

993
00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:00,640
warfare and interaction so

994
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:02,640
lots of things to think about and i do

995
00:35:05,349 --> 00:35:03,920
you know there's been lots of movies

996
00:35:07,349 --> 00:35:05,359
like you say made

997
00:35:09,510 --> 00:35:07,359
where that very thing is plays out right

998
00:35:11,030 --> 00:35:09,520
where actually a positive alien

999
00:35:13,109 --> 00:35:11,040
intelligence comes and the military

1000
00:35:15,030 --> 00:35:13,119
right away wants to shoot it down right

1001
00:35:16,710 --> 00:35:15,040
but we are hearing cases you know as

1002
00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:16,720
much as that's kind of a cliche and a

1003
00:35:21,190 --> 00:35:18,960
stereotype we are hearing cases even

1004
00:35:23,349 --> 00:35:21,200
recently where we supposedly are firing

1005
00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:23,359
at ufos that then shoot up into space

1006
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:24,960
right this has been something that's

1007
00:35:29,349 --> 00:35:27,119
been uh talked about very very recently

1008
00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:29,359
this week basically

1009
00:35:32,069 --> 00:35:30,480
so

1010
00:35:33,510 --> 00:35:32,079
we've certainly made that that error

1011
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:33,520
before and it seems like we're still

1012
00:35:38,630 --> 00:35:36,000
making that error on occasion

1013
00:35:40,069 --> 00:35:38,640
and um because this has been so

1014
00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:40,079
hush-hush and there's been so much

1015
00:35:45,109 --> 00:35:42,320
stigma stigma for so long

1016
00:35:46,710 --> 00:35:45,119
the military really hasn't held the the

1017
00:35:47,829 --> 00:35:46,720
hearings that are necessary and develop

1018
00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:47,839
the kind of

1019
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:50,079
information necessary to say what is a

1020
00:35:53,349 --> 00:35:52,240
reasonable response when we think we're

1021
00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:53,359
interacting with something that's

1022
00:35:58,230 --> 00:35:56,160
non-human potentially how should our

1023
00:36:00,470 --> 00:35:58,240
actions and our protocols be different

1024
00:36:02,310 --> 00:36:00,480
in that scenario rather than we when we

1025
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:02,320
identify as the russians or the chinese

1026
00:36:05,670 --> 00:36:04,320
or whatever these are the questions we

1027
00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:05,680
should be having you know the

1028
00:36:09,190 --> 00:36:07,680
conversations we should be having

1029
00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:09,200
especially because there's so much

1030
00:36:12,870 --> 00:36:10,560
evidence now that this is really

1031
00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:12,880
happening this is happening regularly

1032
00:36:16,790 --> 00:36:14,640
out in the oceans with our military with

1033
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:16,800
our naval groups and whatnot we should

1034
00:36:19,589 --> 00:36:18,240
actually have protocols in place that

1035
00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:19,599
are very clear about these kind of

1036
00:36:23,349 --> 00:36:21,680
things so that we don't send the wrong

1037
00:36:26,230 --> 00:36:23,359
message to uh

1038
00:36:27,829 --> 00:36:26,240
other you know in alien intelligence i

1039
00:36:29,589 --> 00:36:27,839
couldn't agree with you more uh we

1040
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:29,599
absolutely have to be asking these

1041
00:36:32,069 --> 00:36:30,720
questions

1042
00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:32,079
we have to be

1043
00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:35,920
encouraging that specific conversation

1044
00:36:39,349 --> 00:36:38,320
um and you know if we're not going down

1045
00:36:41,829 --> 00:36:39,359
that path

1046
00:36:45,109 --> 00:36:41,839
i really fear we are you know jumping

1047
00:36:46,950 --> 00:36:45,119
the gun here maybe even literally uh in

1048
00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:46,960
in the way that we are engaging with

1049
00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:49,680
this uh whatever it happens to be so you

1050
00:36:55,510 --> 00:36:52,240
know the things that i am looking for

1051
00:36:58,150 --> 00:36:55,520
in our public conversation are uh you

1052
00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:58,160
know hints that our officials

1053
00:37:02,470 --> 00:37:00,240
are looking at that our thinking about

1054
00:37:04,470 --> 00:37:02,480
that aspect are consulting with people

1055
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:04,480
who have thought through

1056
00:37:09,750 --> 00:37:07,680
this particular aspect of engagement

1057
00:37:13,109 --> 00:37:09,760
with a non-human intelligence that is

1058
00:37:15,589 --> 00:37:13,119
either on par or maybe exceeds our own

1059
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:15,599
you know what what are the rules you

1060
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:17,280
know are there rules what are some

1061
00:37:20,870 --> 00:37:18,720
things we should be doing to lay

1062
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:20,880
groundwork there so that we're being as

1063
00:37:25,270 --> 00:37:23,520
careful as we possibly can

1064
00:37:27,349 --> 00:37:25,280
and on top of that

1065
00:37:28,230 --> 00:37:27,359
how well are we coordinating

1066
00:37:30,550 --> 00:37:28,240
with

1067
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:30,560
you know other world powers and doing

1068
00:37:33,990 --> 00:37:32,640
the same you know it's not just good

1069
00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:34,000
enough for

1070
00:37:37,910 --> 00:37:35,680
the united states to have this figured

1071
00:37:39,750 --> 00:37:37,920
out uh and approach it you know in a

1072
00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:39,760
careful thoughtful way we really have to

1073
00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:42,160
have everybody on board and because we

1074
00:37:46,069 --> 00:37:43,920
we know from everything that we have

1075
00:37:48,470 --> 00:37:46,079
heard that this is a worldwide from

1076
00:37:50,790 --> 00:37:48,480
worldwide phenomenon um it's not only

1077
00:37:53,670 --> 00:37:50,800
being engaged with by other

1078
00:37:55,589 --> 00:37:53,680
military powers it's being engaged with

1079
00:37:58,230 --> 00:37:55,599
on a very personal level

1080
00:38:00,069 --> 00:37:58,240
across the globe and so that also speaks

1081
00:38:03,109 --> 00:38:00,079
to the fact that we need to be

1082
00:38:05,910 --> 00:38:03,119
listening if not now but i think soon

1083
00:38:07,750 --> 00:38:05,920
listening to those who have claimed

1084
00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:07,760
interaction with whatever this happens

1085
00:38:10,870 --> 00:38:09,040
to be

1086
00:38:13,510 --> 00:38:10,880
when you take those experiences and

1087
00:38:15,270 --> 00:38:13,520
accounts very seriously uh as as you

1088
00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:15,280
said before you know take them seriously

1089
00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:17,280
but hold them lightly we need to collect

1090
00:38:21,510 --> 00:38:19,520
them we need to analyze them we need to

1091
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:21,520
as best we can study them and see if we

1092
00:38:26,230 --> 00:38:23,680
can reproduce any of that

1093
00:38:28,550 --> 00:38:26,240
if our official powers are not making

1094
00:38:30,630 --> 00:38:28,560
the effort to do these kinds of things

1095
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,640
then i really think we are

1096
00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:32,480
you know getting into a situation that

1097
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,320
we may very well not be able to back

1098
00:38:38,470 --> 00:38:36,720
ourselves out of um so you know i'm

1099
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:38,480
looking for signs that we're doing that

1100
00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:40,560
i know that that these are early days i

1101
00:38:45,109 --> 00:38:42,320
think in this in this public

1102
00:38:47,829 --> 00:38:45,119
conversation but it it it strikes me

1103
00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:47,839
that it very naturally follows once we

1104
00:38:51,750 --> 00:38:50,000
can accept publicly that this is what

1105
00:38:54,390 --> 00:38:51,760
might be taking place

1106
00:38:56,150 --> 00:38:54,400
we absolutely must then go to

1107
00:38:58,310 --> 00:38:56,160
you know how is what is the most

1108
00:39:00,710 --> 00:38:58,320
responsible way to try to interact with

1109
00:39:01,589 --> 00:39:00,720
whatever this happens to be and i really

1110
00:39:03,589 --> 00:39:01,599
hope that we're having those

1111
00:39:05,190 --> 00:39:03,599
conversations at least in the in the

1112
00:39:07,510 --> 00:39:05,200
back rooms right now maybe not in the

1113
00:39:09,190 --> 00:39:07,520
front but uh that we're being putting

1114
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:09,200
ourselves in a place we're ready to have

1115
00:39:15,109 --> 00:39:12,560
that conversation when that time comes

1116
00:39:17,109 --> 00:39:15,119
yeah absolutely and like you say sort of

1117
00:39:18,069 --> 00:39:17,119
one follows the other so we really have

1118
00:39:23,270 --> 00:39:18,079
to have

1119
00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:23,280
more of the public recognizing that this

1120
00:39:28,630 --> 00:39:26,160
is really going on and then people

1121
00:39:30,310 --> 00:39:28,640
you know become normalized to this this

1122
00:39:32,790 --> 00:39:30,320
this topic and then we begin to have

1123
00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:32,800
conversations about what is the national

1124
00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:34,880
and what is the international response

1125
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:36,720
uh to this kind of matter

1126
00:39:39,829 --> 00:39:38,000
you know and there have been some

1127
00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:39,839
historic cases

1128
00:39:42,710 --> 00:39:41,920
where there seemingly were some hostile

1129
00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:42,720
acts

1130
00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:44,400
you know we think back to cases in in

1131
00:39:47,829 --> 00:39:45,839
brazil for instance there's definitely

1132
00:39:49,829 --> 00:39:47,839
been some some situations there

1133
00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:49,839
historically where some negative

1134
00:39:54,470 --> 00:39:52,400
entities seem to show up you know and so

1135
00:39:55,829 --> 00:39:54,480
how are they different than the ce5

1136
00:39:58,390 --> 00:39:55,839
groups you know that we're interacting

1137
00:40:00,069 --> 00:39:58,400
with why is that data set so different

1138
00:40:02,069 --> 00:40:00,079
again we can't even begin to tease out

1139
00:40:03,990 --> 00:40:02,079
the differences potentially the patterns

1140
00:40:06,390 --> 00:40:04,000
there that could identify one group over

1141
00:40:07,990 --> 00:40:06,400
another until we first acknowledge in a

1142
00:40:09,910 --> 00:40:08,000
more public level that this is really

1143
00:40:12,230 --> 00:40:09,920
happening that there may be multiple

1144
00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:12,240
intelligences here and from there we ask

1145
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:14,400
the more complex but very very pressing

1146
00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:16,240
questions

1147
00:40:20,309 --> 00:40:18,000
absolutely

1148
00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:20,319
all right well speaking of uh you know

1149
00:40:24,390 --> 00:40:22,880
sort of the the pros and cons of of

1150
00:40:26,630 --> 00:40:24,400
contact and

1151
00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:26,640
you know what we can look to

1152
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:27,520
in

1153
00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:32,400
and anecdotes of folks who have had

1154
00:40:36,630 --> 00:40:35,680
contact i think this next clip is a good

1155
00:40:38,710 --> 00:40:36,640
uh

1156
00:40:39,589 --> 00:40:38,720
example to review so this is going to be

1157
00:40:41,670 --> 00:40:39,599
from

1158
00:40:43,510 --> 00:40:41,680
uh ray hernandez

1159
00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:43,520
and i think

1160
00:40:47,589 --> 00:40:46,400
this is ray hernandez uh speaking with

1161
00:40:49,589 --> 00:40:47,599
george knapp

1162
00:40:52,069 --> 00:40:49,599
uh i think it's a mystery wire so let's

1163
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:52,079
uh skew that up and take a listen the

1164
00:40:55,829 --> 00:40:54,000
things that jumped out at you that the

1165
00:40:57,270 --> 00:40:55,839
conclusions that were well we have four

1166
00:40:59,430 --> 00:40:57,280
major uh

1167
00:41:01,270 --> 00:40:59,440
findings research findings we could go

1168
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:01,280
into hundreds of them but the four major

1169
00:41:07,430 --> 00:41:05,440
ones is that uh we asked uh almost uh 25

1170
00:41:09,510 --> 00:41:07,440
questions related to the question of

1171
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:09,520
positive negative and neutral was your

1172
00:41:13,030 --> 00:41:11,200
experience positive or negative neutral

1173
00:41:15,030 --> 00:41:13,040
we asked it in more than 25 different

1174
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:15,040
ways because depending on how you ask

1175
00:41:18,069 --> 00:41:17,280
the question you get different responses

1176
00:41:20,790 --> 00:41:18,079
okay

1177
00:41:22,790 --> 00:41:20,800
so um what we found out was that the

1178
00:41:24,630 --> 00:41:22,800
responses was between

1179
00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:24,640
85

1180
00:41:28,550 --> 00:41:26,880
that were not negative to 95

1181
00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:28,560
that were not negative

1182
00:41:34,470 --> 00:41:30,720
we also found out was that in the very

1183
00:41:37,030 --> 00:41:34,480
beginning of the experiences 38

1184
00:41:40,470 --> 00:41:37,040
responded that their experiences were

1185
00:41:42,550 --> 00:41:40,480
negative perceived as highly negative 38

1186
00:41:45,270 --> 00:41:42,560
but then when we asked the individual

1187
00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:45,280
now what is your perception now that

1188
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:47,440
number dwindled to like what i said

1189
00:41:54,069 --> 00:41:50,880
before between 85 to 95 percent not not

1190
00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:54,079
negative uh a good majority of the

1191
00:41:58,870 --> 00:41:56,079
responses uh with depending on the

1192
00:42:00,309 --> 00:41:58,880
question asked was between 50 to 60 was

1193
00:42:02,710 --> 00:42:00,319
neutral so it wasn't that it was

1194
00:42:05,829 --> 00:42:02,720
positive either it was a positive was

1195
00:42:08,069 --> 00:42:05,839
depending between 35 to 45 percent was

1196
00:42:09,990 --> 00:42:08,079
positive experiences but neutral was the

1197
00:42:11,910 --> 00:42:10,000
largest of the three categories but the

1198
00:42:15,109 --> 00:42:11,920
negative was actually the the smallest

1199
00:42:17,910 --> 00:42:15,119
part we also discovered

1200
00:42:19,829 --> 00:42:17,920
stop it there so uh that's ray hernandez

1201
00:42:22,710 --> 00:42:19,839
speaking to george knapp on results from

1202
00:42:24,630 --> 00:42:22,720
the free study uh that i you know that

1203
00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:24,640
did a comprehensive survey of a lot of

1204
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:26,640
folks that have had contact and just

1205
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:28,800
relaying some of the results of of that

1206
00:42:33,910 --> 00:42:30,960
study i know you've talked about free a

1207
00:42:35,430 --> 00:42:33,920
great deal on point of convergence um

1208
00:42:37,190 --> 00:42:35,440
you know you could go to that well

1209
00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:37,200
pretty often so you're very familiar

1210
00:42:40,550 --> 00:42:38,560
with it but what are

1211
00:42:42,309 --> 00:42:40,560
what's your take away from free uh do we

1212
00:42:44,870 --> 00:42:42,319
think it's something that we can really

1213
00:42:47,030 --> 00:42:44,880
look to with some validity

1214
00:42:50,230 --> 00:42:47,040
uh you know what is your takeaway just

1215
00:42:53,190 --> 00:42:50,240
generally from these results

1216
00:42:54,630 --> 00:42:53,200
yeah it's it's fascinating study uh the

1217
00:42:56,790 --> 00:42:54,640
largest of its kind that's ever been

1218
00:42:59,589 --> 00:42:56,800
done that should be acknowledged we owe

1219
00:43:02,710 --> 00:42:59,599
a debt of gratitude to free and to

1220
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:02,720
to rey and you know a lot of people

1221
00:43:06,390 --> 00:43:04,480
uh historically

1222
00:43:08,230 --> 00:43:06,400
that were involved with free and got

1223
00:43:10,870 --> 00:43:08,240
this done

1224
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:10,880
you know part of what ray recognized was

1225
00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:13,119
to get this to get more traction in the

1226
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:14,800
mainstream we need to have this study by

1227
00:43:19,109 --> 00:43:16,319
academics and

1228
00:43:20,950 --> 00:43:19,119
we need to have a you know a survey that

1229
00:43:23,030 --> 00:43:20,960
follows certain protocols so we have

1230
00:43:24,470 --> 00:43:23,040
certain confidence in in the data and

1231
00:43:26,790 --> 00:43:24,480
the conclusions

1232
00:43:28,710 --> 00:43:26,800
uh both a qualitative and a quantitative

1233
00:43:30,790 --> 00:43:28,720
kind of survey aspect

1234
00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:30,800
all that's good um there were some

1235
00:43:34,309 --> 00:43:32,720
fascinating uh

1236
00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:34,319
you know results that came from it i

1237
00:43:38,790 --> 00:43:36,160
think were very surprising

1238
00:43:40,230 --> 00:43:38,800
ray has talked pretty frankly about the

1239
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:40,240
fact that he is frustrated with

1240
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:42,079
mainstream ufology

1241
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:43,839
and the sort of

1242
00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:45,040
typical

1243
00:43:49,030 --> 00:43:46,880
negative abduction experience you know

1244
00:43:50,790 --> 00:43:49,040
kind of anal probes whatever you want to

1245
00:43:52,710 --> 00:43:50,800
call it you know the the real negative

1246
00:43:54,069 --> 00:43:52,720
stuff

1247
00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:54,079
not because it's not part of the

1248
00:43:57,430 --> 00:43:55,680
literature but because from his point of

1249
00:43:59,270 --> 00:43:57,440
view that's been overemphasized that

1250
00:44:01,270 --> 00:43:59,280
when you look at the free

1251
00:44:04,230 --> 00:44:01,280
research based on these surveys that

1252
00:44:06,470 --> 00:44:04,240
were done right voluntarily by people

1253
00:44:09,270 --> 00:44:06,480
that's a relatively small percentage of

1254
00:44:11,430 --> 00:44:09,280
the totality like he says the results of

1255
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:11,440
the free study were that

1256
00:44:14,790 --> 00:44:13,280
the vast majority were non-negative when

1257
00:44:17,349 --> 00:44:14,800
he says non-negative what he means is

1258
00:44:19,510 --> 00:44:17,359
they either voted for positive or

1259
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:19,520
neutral right it's one of those two and

1260
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:20,960
even when you take out neutral the

1261
00:44:25,349 --> 00:44:23,280
positive was remarkably high

1262
00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:25,359
when you also add in the fact that he

1263
00:44:28,150 --> 00:44:26,480
talked about the difference between

1264
00:44:30,470 --> 00:44:28,160
initial reactions and then later

1265
00:44:31,750 --> 00:44:30,480
reactions the big factor there the

1266
00:44:33,910 --> 00:44:31,760
variable in play there is the

1267
00:44:37,430 --> 00:44:33,920
ontological shock which i've also talked

1268
00:44:40,470 --> 00:44:37,440
about many times this is a term that um

1269
00:44:42,150 --> 00:44:40,480
you know has been around for decades

1270
00:44:43,829 --> 00:44:42,160
and

1271
00:44:45,990 --> 00:44:43,839
what basically that's about is that when

1272
00:44:48,150 --> 00:44:46,000
suddenly these non-human entities appear

1273
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:48,160
in your room or whatever it's going to

1274
00:44:51,589 --> 00:44:49,440
be frightening we're going to have a

1275
00:44:53,829 --> 00:44:51,599
natural physiological reaction based on

1276
00:44:55,670 --> 00:44:53,839
our evolutionary history which is this

1277
00:44:57,349 --> 00:44:55,680
is not good you know

1278
00:44:58,630 --> 00:44:57,359
when our ancestors suddenly saw a lion

1279
00:45:00,069 --> 00:44:58,640
step i mean i've had this happen i've

1280
00:45:01,270 --> 00:45:00,079
had a mountain lion step out from behind

1281
00:45:02,230 --> 00:45:01,280
a tree before when i was completely

1282
00:45:03,910 --> 00:45:02,240
alone

1283
00:45:05,349 --> 00:45:03,920
and i know what it feels like just the

1284
00:45:08,230 --> 00:45:05,359
adrenaline shoots through your body you

1285
00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:08,240
suddenly feel extremely vulnerable

1286
00:45:13,270 --> 00:45:11,520
and that's with an unknown entity right

1287
00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:13,280
uh in this case you have beings that are

1288
00:45:16,630 --> 00:45:15,040
supposedly not supposed to exist

1289
00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:16,640
suddenly appearing in your bedroom the

1290
00:45:20,309 --> 00:45:18,640
place is the most you know

1291
00:45:21,190 --> 00:45:20,319
safe secure chamber you're supposed to

1292
00:45:23,430 --> 00:45:21,200
have

1293
00:45:24,790 --> 00:45:23,440
locked doors don't do a damn thing if

1294
00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:24,800
they just appear in your bedroom right

1295
00:45:28,630 --> 00:45:26,560
float through walls or whatever

1296
00:45:30,550 --> 00:45:28,640
so that's that's fascinating

1297
00:45:31,829 --> 00:45:30,560
it's also interesting that

1298
00:45:33,829 --> 00:45:31,839
when you think about the kinds of

1299
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:33,839
entities that were encountered

1300
00:45:38,069 --> 00:45:35,680
this also i think flies in the face of

1301
00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:38,079
some of the ufological history

1302
00:45:41,910 --> 00:45:39,760
because while the grays are in there

1303
00:45:43,750 --> 00:45:41,920
they're not number one the number one

1304
00:45:45,750 --> 00:45:43,760
kind i believe was an energy kind of

1305
00:45:47,589 --> 00:45:45,760
being that didn't have a humanoid or a

1306
00:45:49,349 --> 00:45:47,599
gray form just sort of like a ball of

1307
00:45:51,589 --> 00:45:49,359
energy that kind of appears it's

1308
00:45:53,270 --> 00:45:51,599
non-distinct in some ways you know the

1309
00:45:54,710 --> 00:45:53,280
kind of orb kind of thing fits within

1310
00:45:56,470 --> 00:45:54,720
that as well

1311
00:45:58,790 --> 00:45:56,480
then you have a kind of a humanoid

1312
00:46:00,390 --> 00:45:58,800
figure that shows up next which is very

1313
00:46:01,589 --> 00:46:00,400
interesting and i had an encounter like

1314
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:01,599
that personally

1315
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:04,720
back in 2005 so i know what that's like

1316
00:46:09,589 --> 00:46:07,359
and then you have the small grays the

1317
00:46:12,230 --> 00:46:09,599
tall grays next in line in terms of the

1318
00:46:14,069 --> 00:46:12,240
most common entity encountered followed

1319
00:46:16,550 --> 00:46:14,079
up by the reptilians and the mantids

1320
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:16,560
right and by the way even with the

1321
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:18,400
mantids he talked about or sorry with

1322
00:46:22,309 --> 00:46:20,480
the reptilians that had the highest

1323
00:46:24,309 --> 00:46:22,319
negative response but again there was

1324
00:46:26,390 --> 00:46:24,319
still a huge shift between initial and

1325
00:46:30,230 --> 00:46:26,400
later because he talks about this when a

1326
00:46:32,390 --> 00:46:30,240
nine foot tall 500 pound muscular

1327
00:46:34,630 --> 00:46:32,400
crocodile head being appears in your

1328
00:46:36,309 --> 00:46:34,640
room you can understand that's that's a

1329
00:46:38,870 --> 00:46:36,319
whole different level of shock you feel

1330
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:38,880
very vulnerable physically in that case

1331
00:46:42,230 --> 00:46:40,480
but again it's surprising how many

1332
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:42,240
people come to see that either as

1333
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:44,800
neutral or positive over time

1334
00:46:47,349 --> 00:46:45,920
so that's some of the findings

1335
00:46:50,069 --> 00:46:47,359
themselves the only other part i would

1336
00:46:52,230 --> 00:46:50,079
add is that some people have questioned

1337
00:46:54,150 --> 00:46:52,240
the methodology because

1338
00:46:56,150 --> 00:46:54,160
the way that they gathered this data was

1339
00:46:57,430 --> 00:46:56,160
to target for instance facebook groups

1340
00:46:59,670 --> 00:46:57,440
that either had

1341
00:47:02,150 --> 00:46:59,680
you know near-death experiencers or

1342
00:47:04,150 --> 00:47:02,160
alien contact experiencers you know or

1343
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:04,160
people who had seen ufos

1344
00:47:07,589 --> 00:47:05,680
so basically the people who took the

1345
00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:07,599
survey had to have had some sort of

1346
00:47:12,309 --> 00:47:10,160
contact with non-human intelligence and

1347
00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:12,319
these are people that are self-selecting

1348
00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:14,480
to join the survey right and they're

1349
00:47:18,710 --> 00:47:16,640
already targeting groups that

1350
00:47:20,549 --> 00:47:18,720
some people might argue

1351
00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:20,559
are more likely to attract people who

1352
00:47:24,309 --> 00:47:22,240
have a negative or have a positive

1353
00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:24,319
encounter because if you really had a

1354
00:47:28,549 --> 00:47:26,720
traumatic traumatic experience you might

1355
00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:28,559
just want to block it entirely

1356
00:47:32,470 --> 00:47:30,880
disassociate from it not talk about it

1357
00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:32,480
regularly and so you're not like as

1358
00:47:36,710 --> 00:47:34,960
likely to join a facebook group about

1359
00:47:39,270 --> 00:47:36,720
contact with non-human intelligence or

1360
00:47:41,190 --> 00:47:39,280
near-death experiences so in that sense

1361
00:47:42,470 --> 00:47:41,200
you could argue that perhaps

1362
00:47:44,309 --> 00:47:42,480
they're not getting a completely

1363
00:47:45,589 --> 00:47:44,319
accurate picture of the totality of the

1364
00:47:47,829 --> 00:47:45,599
data and i think that's a valid

1365
00:47:49,990 --> 00:47:47,839
criticism i don't think that's because

1366
00:47:51,270 --> 00:47:50,000
free was trying to bias the results i

1367
00:47:53,670 --> 00:47:51,280
just think there's only so much you can

1368
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:53,680
do how much can you seek out people who

1369
00:47:57,109 --> 00:47:55,200
are deliberately not wanting to talk

1370
00:47:58,710 --> 00:47:57,119
about this right that's difficult but

1371
00:48:01,270 --> 00:47:58,720
it's a fair criticism that you might not

1372
00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:01,280
have a complete picture of the data but

1373
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:03,119
nevertheless what did emerge was

1374
00:48:06,309 --> 00:48:04,559
interesting and kind of flies in the

1375
00:48:09,990 --> 00:48:06,319
face of some of what has been presented

1376
00:48:14,470 --> 00:48:11,910
well you know there's what comes to my

1377
00:48:16,710 --> 00:48:14,480
mind is that uh as this topic

1378
00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:16,720
kind of gains traction in the public

1379
00:48:20,069 --> 00:48:17,760
arena

1380
00:48:21,349 --> 00:48:20,079
uh we're going to need more free studies

1381
00:48:23,430 --> 00:48:21,359
you know we're going to need more

1382
00:48:25,910 --> 00:48:23,440
research in this area

1383
00:48:27,750 --> 00:48:25,920
and the normalization of the topic

1384
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:27,760
itself will

1385
00:48:32,790 --> 00:48:29,680
counteract to some degree the bias that

1386
00:48:34,549 --> 00:48:32,800
you just described that as more people

1387
00:48:37,030 --> 00:48:34,559
are feeling comfortable sharing their

1388
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:37,040
experience uh whether that be positive

1389
00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:38,800
or negative

1390
00:48:42,470 --> 00:48:40,480
then more people will talk about it you

1391
00:48:44,950 --> 00:48:42,480
know so we'll get more data and we'll be

1392
00:48:46,710 --> 00:48:44,960
able to analyze that now we'll say uh

1393
00:48:48,150 --> 00:48:46,720
just in the last few years at least in

1394
00:48:50,790 --> 00:48:48,160
the circles that you and i find

1395
00:48:53,030 --> 00:48:50,800
ourselves where this topic has become

1396
00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:53,040
much more normalized you know we have

1397
00:48:57,030 --> 00:48:55,760
seen an increase in individuals i think

1398
00:48:58,950 --> 00:48:57,040
who've come forward and shared their

1399
00:49:00,950 --> 00:48:58,960
experiences and the ones that i've

1400
00:49:02,950 --> 00:49:00,960
interacted with those experiences have

1401
00:49:04,950 --> 00:49:02,960
have generally been positive they but

1402
00:49:05,910 --> 00:49:04,960
they have gone through oftentimes the

1403
00:49:09,190 --> 00:49:05,920
same

1404
00:49:11,270 --> 00:49:09,200
sort of stages and phases that hernandez

1405
00:49:12,069 --> 00:49:11,280
just spoke to that they initially are

1406
00:49:14,870 --> 00:49:12,079
very

1407
00:49:17,510 --> 00:49:14,880
uh you know alarming and and quite

1408
00:49:19,829 --> 00:49:17,520
negative uh and then they go through you

1409
00:49:21,670 --> 00:49:19,839
know kind of a period of reflection and

1410
00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:21,680
understanding even to

1411
00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:22,480
uh

1412
00:49:27,829 --> 00:49:24,400
almost wanting to have the experience

1413
00:49:29,510 --> 00:49:27,839
again to gain greater clarity uh on

1414
00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:29,520
what's going on they feel sort of

1415
00:49:35,910 --> 00:49:33,119
mentally better prepared to engage with

1416
00:49:38,549 --> 00:49:35,920
this same kind of entity again

1417
00:49:40,549 --> 00:49:38,559
and then be able to ask questions of it

1418
00:49:43,270 --> 00:49:40,559
or you know not approach it from a state

1419
00:49:45,990 --> 00:49:43,280
of fear so there can be a more

1420
00:49:47,109 --> 00:49:46,000
beneficial dialogue and so i do think

1421
00:49:49,270 --> 00:49:47,119
that uh

1422
00:49:51,589 --> 00:49:49,280
the free study is very helpful as kind

1423
00:49:53,910 --> 00:49:51,599
of a signpost for us to look at an

1424
00:49:56,069 --> 00:49:53,920
example of of what

1425
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:56,079
a research initiative might look like

1426
00:50:00,790 --> 00:49:58,400
but also for

1427
00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:00,800
really what will take place uh in the

1428
00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:03,680
public in the world you could argue when

1429
00:50:09,270 --> 00:50:06,160
this topic does become uh you know part

1430
00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:09,280
of the the accepted reality you know the

1431
00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:11,200
world itself is going to go through

1432
00:50:15,589 --> 00:50:13,200
these very same stages you know it's

1433
00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:15,599
going to be you know that instinctual

1434
00:50:21,270 --> 00:50:18,400
this can't be true you know a a a

1435
00:50:23,030 --> 00:50:21,280
knee-jerk in a reaction against uh to

1436
00:50:24,870 --> 00:50:23,040
you know oh it really might you know i'm

1437
00:50:27,190 --> 00:50:24,880
coming into grips with this and what

1438
00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:27,200
does that mean for me and it is true

1439
00:50:31,430 --> 00:50:29,520
to i really want to learn more about it

1440
00:50:33,510 --> 00:50:31,440
uh to you know a sense of greater

1441
00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:33,520
engagement and to some degree we really

1442
00:50:38,069 --> 00:50:36,160
have to go through those stages now it's

1443
00:50:40,710 --> 00:50:38,079
one thing for this to happen on a very

1444
00:50:41,910 --> 00:50:40,720
individual level and for that to happen

1445
00:50:44,630 --> 00:50:41,920
kind of peppered throughout the

1446
00:50:46,309 --> 00:50:44,640
population it's valuable

1447
00:50:49,270 --> 00:50:46,319
it's another thing altogether to have

1448
00:50:51,430 --> 00:50:49,280
this happen you know worldwide on a much

1449
00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:51,440
larger scale and

1450
00:50:54,069 --> 00:50:52,800
you know if you're looking at it and

1451
00:50:56,790 --> 00:50:54,079
thinking about it from sort of the

1452
00:50:59,349 --> 00:50:56,800
unfolding of a relationship here with

1453
00:51:01,190 --> 00:50:59,359
whatever these entities are and and the

1454
00:51:04,230 --> 00:51:01,200
variety that they that they may

1455
00:51:06,390 --> 00:51:04,240
represent we need human civilization to

1456
00:51:08,950 --> 00:51:06,400
go through these phases we need to be

1457
00:51:10,150 --> 00:51:08,960
able to do so in a way that is healthy

1458
00:51:15,349 --> 00:51:10,160
that can be

1459
00:51:17,190 --> 00:51:15,359
people the space they need to to really

1460
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:17,200
experience the different emotions that

1461
00:51:21,750 --> 00:51:19,760
are naturally going to be experienced

1462
00:51:23,829 --> 00:51:21,760
when this you know becomes a greater

1463
00:51:25,829 --> 00:51:23,839
reality so you know i think this is a

1464
00:51:28,470 --> 00:51:25,839
really helpful clip and just a helpful

1465
00:51:30,230 --> 00:51:28,480
study you know generally

1466
00:51:32,309 --> 00:51:30,240
obviously a study of this nature like

1467
00:51:33,990 --> 00:51:32,319
you said it's going to have its flaws

1468
00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:34,000
but those are things that we can look to

1469
00:51:37,349 --> 00:51:35,440
and learn from

1470
00:51:38,710 --> 00:51:37,359
you know as we move forward with this

1471
00:51:40,309 --> 00:51:38,720
conversation

1472
00:51:42,790 --> 00:51:40,319
right and i would add that there have

1473
00:51:45,109 --> 00:51:42,800
been a couple other studies historically

1474
00:51:47,109 --> 00:51:45,119
even well before this and

1475
00:51:48,790 --> 00:51:47,119
they found very similar uh came to very

1476
00:51:50,470 --> 00:51:48,800
similar conclusions in terms of the data

1477
00:51:52,950 --> 00:51:50,480
in terms of positive negative

1478
00:51:55,109 --> 00:51:52,960
so that's worth noting as well

1479
00:51:57,030 --> 00:51:55,119
in addition one of the

1480
00:51:58,790 --> 00:51:57,040
facets that came

1481
00:52:01,030 --> 00:51:58,800
out of this study that was you know

1482
00:52:02,870 --> 00:52:01,040
probably the most significant and this

1483
00:52:04,950 --> 00:52:02,880
plays very much into why i called my

1484
00:52:06,630 --> 00:52:04,960
podcast point of convergence

1485
00:52:08,549 --> 00:52:06,640
is because

1486
00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:08,559
rey was the one who coined this term the

1487
00:52:11,990 --> 00:52:10,800
contact modalities it was his his

1488
00:52:14,549 --> 00:52:12,000
expression

1489
00:52:16,390 --> 00:52:14,559
and he used that because number one he

1490
00:52:17,910 --> 00:52:16,400
had a vision one time he was talks about

1491
00:52:20,309 --> 00:52:17,920
driving down

1492
00:52:22,309 --> 00:52:20,319
you know a busy part of miami

1493
00:52:25,270 --> 00:52:22,319
uh in you know rush hour traffic kind of

1494
00:52:27,270 --> 00:52:25,280
thing listening to some radio program

1495
00:52:29,109 --> 00:52:27,280
and then suddenly finding himself out of

1496
00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:29,119
his body in an altered state of

1497
00:52:31,910 --> 00:52:30,720
consciousness no longer in his car at

1498
00:52:34,069 --> 00:52:31,920
all and he didn't even have a body he

1499
00:52:36,549 --> 00:52:34,079
was just like a floating consciousness

1500
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:36,559
and saw kind of this symbolic

1501
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:38,160
giant display

1502
00:52:42,230 --> 00:52:40,640
that had kind of a symbology talking

1503
00:52:43,990 --> 00:52:42,240
about the contact modalities you had

1504
00:52:46,470 --> 00:52:44,000
near-death experiences out-of-body

1505
00:52:47,589 --> 00:52:46,480
experiences alien contact

1506
00:52:49,670 --> 00:52:47,599
you know

1507
00:52:51,190 --> 00:52:49,680
mediumship on it goes kind of thing that

1508
00:52:53,670 --> 00:52:51,200
these were all different

1509
00:52:55,829 --> 00:52:53,680
modalities connected to one's central

1510
00:52:57,589 --> 00:52:55,839
hub so he was basically basically being

1511
00:52:59,990 --> 00:52:57,599
shown a symbol

1512
00:53:01,829 --> 00:53:00,000
you know an entire diagram to say this

1513
00:53:03,349 --> 00:53:01,839
is really all connected

1514
00:53:05,829 --> 00:53:03,359
it wasn't just that he put it together

1515
00:53:07,829 --> 00:53:05,839
he literally saw that visibly he saw

1516
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:07,839
that and that's when he recognized this

1517
00:53:12,150 --> 00:53:09,440
is what i'm being told that we need to

1518
00:53:14,549 --> 00:53:12,160
focus our research in this direction and

1519
00:53:17,510 --> 00:53:14,559
sure enough that you know also bore out

1520
00:53:19,829 --> 00:53:17,520
in the free research uh findings that

1521
00:53:21,510 --> 00:53:19,839
one of the most fascinating aspects that

1522
00:53:24,230 --> 00:53:21,520
emerges is that

1523
00:53:25,750 --> 00:53:24,240
if you've had one of these modalities uh

1524
00:53:28,150 --> 00:53:25,760
emerge in your life you're much more

1525
00:53:29,589 --> 00:53:28,160
likely than the average population to

1526
00:53:31,109 --> 00:53:29,599
have another one so if you've had a

1527
00:53:33,990 --> 00:53:31,119
near-death experience you're much more

1528
00:53:37,430 --> 00:53:34,000
likely to experience psi phenomena like

1529
00:53:39,510 --> 00:53:37,440
a precognitive dream or telepathy or

1530
00:53:41,190 --> 00:53:39,520
you're more likely to see a ufo

1531
00:53:43,270 --> 00:53:41,200
if you've seen a ufo you're much more

1532
00:53:45,190 --> 00:53:43,280
likely to experience telepathy and have

1533
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:45,200
precognitive dreams

1534
00:53:49,030 --> 00:53:47,520
and on it goes you you more able to

1535
00:53:50,230 --> 00:53:49,040
disassociate and have out-of-body

1536
00:53:51,750 --> 00:53:50,240
experiences

1537
00:53:54,309 --> 00:53:51,760
so of course this raises some really

1538
00:53:55,910 --> 00:53:54,319
fascinating questions around

1539
00:53:58,950 --> 00:53:55,920
is this a chicken and egg thing is there

1540
00:54:00,150 --> 00:53:58,960
are these people already wired at birth

1541
00:54:01,910 --> 00:54:00,160
kind of thing in such a way that they're

1542
00:54:03,910 --> 00:54:01,920
more likely to have these experiences

1543
00:54:07,030 --> 00:54:03,920
just you know than the average

1544
00:54:07,990 --> 00:54:07,040
population or is it that some sort of uh

1545
00:54:10,790 --> 00:54:08,000
you know

1546
00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:10,800
catalyst experience changed something in

1547
00:54:15,430 --> 00:54:13,200
them which allowed them from then on to

1548
00:54:17,109 --> 00:54:15,440
physiologically interact with reality

1549
00:54:18,150 --> 00:54:17,119
differently you know

1550
00:54:20,230 --> 00:54:18,160
and

1551
00:54:20,950 --> 00:54:20,240
getting back to his his experience where

1552
00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:20,960
he

1553
00:54:28,230 --> 00:54:25,760
took about 20 or 30 minutes

1554
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:28,240
experientially but when he got put back

1555
00:54:32,950 --> 00:54:30,240
in his car the radio program was at the

1556
00:54:34,309 --> 00:54:32,960
exact same word he left that so in other

1557
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:34,319
words you have that space-time

1558
00:54:38,630 --> 00:54:36,640
distortion and that's another

1559
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:38,640
key aspect of the data is that space

1560
00:54:42,309 --> 00:54:41,040
time to source distortion happens in all

1561
00:54:43,829 --> 00:54:42,319
of these experiences whether it's

1562
00:54:45,430 --> 00:54:43,839
near-death experiences or out-of-body

1563
00:54:48,069 --> 00:54:45,440
experiences or contact with non-human

1564
00:54:49,670 --> 00:54:48,079
intelligence ufo sightings missing time

1565
00:54:52,230 --> 00:54:49,680
whatever you want to call it you know

1566
00:54:55,030 --> 00:54:52,240
people talk about suddenly you know

1567
00:54:56,710 --> 00:54:55,040
driving down the i-5 in busy rush hour

1568
00:54:58,309 --> 00:54:56,720
traffic and and a couple people be able

1569
00:55:00,789 --> 00:54:58,319
to see a ufo overhead and everybody else

1570
00:55:01,990 --> 00:55:00,799
being oblivious right so again it raises

1571
00:55:04,390 --> 00:55:02,000
questions

1572
00:55:05,990 --> 00:55:04,400
not just about who these others are but

1573
00:55:08,230 --> 00:55:06,000
what is the nature of reality that

1574
00:55:09,510 --> 00:55:08,240
allows that to happen we sometimes will

1575
00:55:10,870 --> 00:55:09,520
say something like well they're just

1576
00:55:13,190 --> 00:55:10,880
projecting into our individual

1577
00:55:14,549 --> 00:55:13,200
consciousnesses but that again makes

1578
00:55:16,150 --> 00:55:14,559
some assumptions about the nature of

1579
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:16,160
reality itself it assumes kind of a

1580
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:18,160
physicalist model and says okay so

1581
00:55:23,270 --> 00:55:20,640
they're just basically beaming you know

1582
00:55:25,190 --> 00:55:23,280
information or or images into the you

1583
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:25,200
know gray matter of someone's skull but

1584
00:55:28,069 --> 00:55:26,720
again there's i don't think that's

1585
00:55:30,230 --> 00:55:28,079
what's really going on i think something

1586
00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:30,240
more fundamental is going on

1587
00:55:34,870 --> 00:55:32,160
that involves consciousness which is you

1588
00:55:35,910 --> 00:55:34,880
know it exists prior to

1589
00:55:38,549 --> 00:55:35,920
physical

1590
00:55:40,549 --> 00:55:38,559
uh nature and energy and matter and

1591
00:55:42,390 --> 00:55:40,559
whatnot and i think that's pointing to

1592
00:55:43,190 --> 00:55:42,400
that and you know jacques leif famously

1593
00:55:45,190 --> 00:55:43,200
said

1594
00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:45,200
the one thing the ufo phenomenon tells

1595
00:55:48,870 --> 00:55:46,640
us is that we don't really understand

1596
00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:48,880
space time right

1597
00:55:52,309 --> 00:55:50,720
he didn't say it stretches some of our

1598
00:55:53,589 --> 00:55:52,319
assumptions he says what's going on

1599
00:55:55,109 --> 00:55:53,599
makes it clear that we don't know what

1600
00:55:57,190 --> 00:55:55,119
we're talking about when we think about

1601
00:55:59,589 --> 00:55:57,200
space time that we have a normal mode or

1602
00:56:01,109 --> 00:55:59,599
as einstein said you know space and time

1603
00:56:03,030 --> 00:56:01,119
is the manner in which we think you know

1604
00:56:03,990 --> 00:56:03,040
not really what the nature of reality

1605
00:56:05,670 --> 00:56:04,000
itself

1606
00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:05,680
so we have all this data pointing

1607
00:56:09,030 --> 00:56:07,040
towards the same thing with quantum

1608
00:56:10,789 --> 00:56:09,040
experiments you know you can you can run

1609
00:56:12,870 --> 00:56:10,799
cause and effect in in reverse and it

1610
00:56:14,549 --> 00:56:12,880
seems to work just as well so we have

1611
00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:14,559
this experience of linear time but it

1612
00:56:17,829 --> 00:56:16,400
doesn't seem to be

1613
00:56:20,069 --> 00:56:17,839
really what's going on when you think

1614
00:56:21,589 --> 00:56:20,079
about remote viewing and and different

1615
00:56:23,910 --> 00:56:21,599
psi phenomena

1616
00:56:26,069 --> 00:56:23,920
time and space seem irrelevant when you

1617
00:56:28,470 --> 00:56:26,079
think about quantum entanglement time

1618
00:56:30,789 --> 00:56:28,480
and space seem irrelevant right and part

1619
00:56:32,069 --> 00:56:30,799
of the reason why physicists have had

1620
00:56:33,829 --> 00:56:32,079
such a hard time wrapping their heads

1621
00:56:35,109 --> 00:56:33,839
around it is because

1622
00:56:36,950 --> 00:56:35,119
they're trying to figure it out from a

1623
00:56:38,870 --> 00:56:36,960
physicalist model which i think is a you

1624
00:56:39,829 --> 00:56:38,880
know is a dead end road it's just not

1625
00:56:41,270 --> 00:56:39,839
going to work

1626
00:56:43,349 --> 00:56:41,280
uh but yeah that's that's i think

1627
00:56:45,190 --> 00:56:43,359
probably the most fascinating aspect to

1628
00:56:46,710 --> 00:56:45,200
me that came out of this research

1629
00:56:48,390 --> 00:56:46,720
as much as there's many aspects that are

1630
00:56:49,990 --> 00:56:48,400
interesting the nature of the beings the

1631
00:56:51,670 --> 00:56:50,000
the fact that it's more likely to be

1632
00:56:53,430 --> 00:56:51,680
positive than not

1633
00:56:55,349 --> 00:56:53,440
but what really stands out to me is how

1634
00:56:57,670 --> 00:56:55,359
almost all of these kinds of encounters

1635
00:56:58,549 --> 00:56:57,680
whether it's alien intelligence whether

1636
00:57:00,309 --> 00:56:58,559
it's

1637
00:57:01,589 --> 00:57:00,319
a near-death experience

1638
00:57:03,670 --> 00:57:01,599
whatever

1639
00:57:06,150 --> 00:57:03,680
it's that time and space seem to be

1640
00:57:08,069 --> 00:57:06,160
distorted not just distorted but

1641
00:57:09,589 --> 00:57:08,079
you experience this almost in an altered

1642
00:57:11,910 --> 00:57:09,599
state of consciousness or an alternate

1643
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:11,920
realm almost like a lucid dream or a

1644
00:57:15,750 --> 00:57:13,440
psychedelic experience again there's

1645
00:57:17,910 --> 00:57:15,760
there's crossover there as well so

1646
00:57:19,589 --> 00:57:17,920
these are these are fascinating

1647
00:57:21,349 --> 00:57:19,599
bits of the data and like i say what

1648
00:57:22,789 --> 00:57:21,359
really stands out to me is that if

1649
00:57:24,710 --> 00:57:22,799
you've had one of these contact

1650
00:57:26,309 --> 00:57:24,720
modalities come online for you you're

1651
00:57:29,109 --> 00:57:26,319
much more likely to have others as well

1652
00:57:31,190 --> 00:57:29,119
which is just truly fascinating

1653
00:57:33,670 --> 00:57:31,200
without a doubt well that takes us to

1654
00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:33,680
our our next clip here which we're going

1655
00:57:39,349 --> 00:57:37,280
to look at uh near death experience so

1656
00:57:40,710 --> 00:57:39,359
if you go into youtube and and look for

1657
00:57:41,589 --> 00:57:40,720
near death experiences you're going to

1658
00:57:44,789 --> 00:57:41,599
find

1659
00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:44,799
a ton of uh really interesting accounts

1660
00:57:47,670 --> 00:57:46,640
this is just one that i chose it had a

1661
00:57:49,430 --> 00:57:47,680
lot of

1662
00:57:51,430 --> 00:57:49,440
views on youtube and i found it really

1663
00:57:52,710 --> 00:57:51,440
fascinating i haven't actually had the

1664
00:57:54,470 --> 00:57:52,720
chance to listen to the whole thing but

1665
00:57:58,549 --> 00:57:54,480
i want to go back and listen to it but

1666
00:58:00,710 --> 00:57:58,559
this comes from uh dr eben alexander who

1667
00:58:01,750 --> 00:58:00,720
is a neurosurgeon yeah so it's a it's a

1668
00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:01,760
great link

1669
00:58:04,950 --> 00:58:03,359
and a little clip here so he's going to

1670
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:04,960
tell us a little bit about i kind of put

1671
00:58:08,710 --> 00:58:06,960
it midstream a little bit about his

1672
00:58:10,950 --> 00:58:08,720
near-death experience

1673
00:58:12,710 --> 00:58:10,960
and as you said earlier sort of

1674
00:58:14,549 --> 00:58:12,720
what it might speak to

1675
00:58:15,750 --> 00:58:14,559
at a more fundamental level so let's

1676
00:58:17,910 --> 00:58:15,760
take a listen

1677
00:58:21,109 --> 00:58:17,920
because up above

1678
00:58:23,990 --> 00:58:21,119
in the velvety black skies above

1679
00:58:26,390 --> 00:58:24,000
were pure spiritual beings orbs of

1680
00:58:28,309 --> 00:58:26,400
golden light swooping and swirling in

1681
00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:28,319
formation leaving sparkling golden

1682
00:58:33,109 --> 00:58:31,920
trails emanating these hymns chants

1683
00:58:36,470 --> 00:58:33,119
anthems

1684
00:58:38,390 --> 00:58:36,480
powerful like a tsunami wave crescendo

1685
00:58:40,390 --> 00:58:38,400
after crescendo after crescendo of the

1686
00:58:43,430 --> 00:58:40,400
most beautiful music

1687
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:43,440
waves washing through me and that's what

1688
00:58:48,069 --> 00:58:45,599
was fueling this incredible joy and

1689
00:58:49,589 --> 00:58:48,079
mirth going on in this gateway valley as

1690
00:58:52,069 --> 00:58:49,599
i came to call it

1691
00:58:54,870 --> 00:58:52,079
now the important thing to understand

1692
00:58:56,950 --> 00:58:54,880
is that that gateway valley was much

1693
00:58:59,190 --> 00:58:56,960
more real

1694
00:59:01,910 --> 00:58:59,200
than this world

1695
00:59:04,549 --> 00:59:01,920
far sharper crisper and more real than

1696
00:59:06,150 --> 00:59:04,559
this this is very dreamlike by

1697
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:06,160
comparison

1698
00:59:11,109 --> 00:59:08,640
that was a deep deep mystery to me for a

1699
00:59:14,069 --> 00:59:11,119
long time trying to understand that

1700
00:59:15,829 --> 00:59:14,079
ultra reality it's

1701
00:59:17,510 --> 00:59:15,839
all right so i love that little clip at

1702
00:59:18,630 --> 00:59:17,520
the end there that's why i kind of chose

1703
00:59:21,109 --> 00:59:18,640
it but

1704
00:59:23,510 --> 00:59:21,119
more real than real here's a near-death

1705
00:59:25,349 --> 00:59:23,520
experience this gentleman

1706
00:59:27,349 --> 00:59:25,359
had suffered in

1707
00:59:30,309 --> 00:59:27,359
extreme

1708
00:59:32,390 --> 00:59:30,319
sort of bacterial infection in his brain

1709
00:59:33,510 --> 00:59:32,400
damage to his brain i think was in a

1710
00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:33,520
coma

1711
00:59:38,230 --> 00:59:35,280
um

1712
00:59:39,589 --> 00:59:38,240
you know had no sort of mental function

1713
00:59:41,750 --> 00:59:39,599
that we would call

1714
00:59:42,950 --> 00:59:41,760
a mental activity from a scientific

1715
00:59:45,510 --> 00:59:42,960
perspective

1716
00:59:46,789 --> 00:59:45,520
yet he's reporting an experience that is

1717
00:59:49,990 --> 00:59:46,799
more vivid

1718
00:59:52,230 --> 00:59:50,000
uh more real than our waking reality he

1719
00:59:53,270 --> 00:59:52,240
he even refers to our waking reality as

1720
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:53,280
the dream

1721
00:59:56,069 --> 00:59:54,400
you know so

1722
00:59:58,230 --> 00:59:56,079
you know it's hard to kind of wrap your

1723
01:00:00,630 --> 00:59:58,240
mind around that if you yourself haven't

1724
01:00:03,910 --> 01:00:00,640
experienced it but i know we've talked

1725
01:00:06,150 --> 01:00:03,920
about this quite a bit i love ndes i

1726
01:00:07,829 --> 01:00:06,160
love the way that they are

1727
01:00:10,390 --> 01:00:07,839
you know the experience that is shared

1728
01:00:13,430 --> 01:00:10,400
there and i think they provide a very

1729
01:00:14,390 --> 01:00:13,440
profound insight into what's really

1730
01:00:17,190 --> 01:00:14,400
happening

1731
01:00:18,630 --> 01:00:17,200
uh at that root level of reality so i

1732
01:00:20,630 --> 01:00:18,640
don't what's your thought when listening

1733
01:00:22,630 --> 01:00:20,640
to that clip

1734
01:00:24,150 --> 01:00:22,640
yeah like you already pointed out one

1735
01:00:25,750 --> 01:00:24,160
thing that's fascinating is how he says

1736
01:00:27,270 --> 01:00:25,760
it it felt more real than real which

1737
01:00:28,870 --> 01:00:27,280
just again

1738
01:00:31,190 --> 01:00:28,880
tells you that

1739
01:00:33,750 --> 01:00:31,200
what we maybe lack here is just context

1740
01:00:36,710 --> 01:00:33,760
right and contrast and

1741
01:00:39,030 --> 01:00:36,720
we uh we define so much of our daily

1742
01:00:39,910 --> 01:00:39,040
waking experience by by contrast you

1743
01:00:40,870 --> 01:00:39,920
know

1744
01:00:42,309 --> 01:00:40,880
um

1745
01:00:43,510 --> 01:00:42,319
how do we know it's dark because we've

1746
01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:43,520
just seen a bright light and we know

1747
01:00:47,270 --> 01:00:45,200
that comparatively you know it's

1748
01:00:48,870 --> 01:00:47,280
different

1749
01:00:51,109 --> 01:00:48,880
what he's saying is that for the first

1750
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:51,119
time you have something counter to the

1751
01:00:56,230 --> 01:00:53,040
daily waking experience

1752
01:00:57,990 --> 01:00:56,240
and it's so solid and real and vibrant

1753
01:01:00,069 --> 01:00:58,000
that it makes this feel dreamlike in

1754
01:01:02,309 --> 01:01:00,079
comparison and many of us have a really

1755
01:01:04,390 --> 01:01:02,319
hard time wrapping our heads around that

1756
01:01:06,230 --> 01:01:04,400
because we have no contrast i remember

1757
01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:06,240
you know when my son was younger i one

1758
01:01:09,349 --> 01:01:07,760
time i mentioned

1759
01:01:10,870 --> 01:01:09,359
the possibility of there being colors

1760
01:01:12,309 --> 01:01:10,880
that we haven't experienced yet and he

1761
01:01:13,990 --> 01:01:12,319
said well how can there be colors other

1762
01:01:15,349 --> 01:01:14,000
than what we experience so he couldn't

1763
01:01:17,510 --> 01:01:15,359
wrap his head around he was a young

1764
01:01:19,109 --> 01:01:17,520
younger kid around how that could even

1765
01:01:22,630 --> 01:01:19,119
be right which just shows you how much

1766
01:01:24,549 --> 01:01:22,640
we're wedded to our our perception being

1767
01:01:25,589 --> 01:01:24,559
akin to reality right

1768
01:01:27,030 --> 01:01:25,599
um

1769
01:01:29,030 --> 01:01:27,040
another thing that's fascinating about

1770
01:01:30,950 --> 01:01:29,040
even alexander specifically is he's a

1771
01:01:33,109 --> 01:01:30,960
brain surgeon right so

1772
01:01:35,349 --> 01:01:33,119
he's a brain surgeon who had this really

1773
01:01:36,309 --> 01:01:35,359
rare condition that put him to this deep

1774
01:01:37,349 --> 01:01:36,319
coma

1775
01:01:39,109 --> 01:01:37,359
and

1776
01:01:40,390 --> 01:01:39,119
it's what's fascinating about the story

1777
01:01:42,309 --> 01:01:40,400
and i really encourage people to look

1778
01:01:43,670 --> 01:01:42,319
into it if they don't know about it

1779
01:01:45,750 --> 01:01:43,680
it's not just that he had this

1780
01:01:48,069 --> 01:01:45,760
near-death experience but that the

1781
01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:48,079
physiological damage to his brain should

1782
01:01:53,109 --> 01:01:50,160
have been

1783
01:01:54,390 --> 01:01:53,119
again based on history so severe that he

1784
01:01:56,069 --> 01:01:54,400
just shouldn't have recovered or if he

1785
01:01:57,029 --> 01:01:56,079
did it'd be basically a vegetable so to

1786
01:01:59,190 --> 01:01:57,039
speak

1787
01:02:00,870 --> 01:01:59,200
they they had basically already told any

1788
01:02:02,470 --> 01:02:00,880
of the best brain surgeons in the world

1789
01:02:04,549 --> 01:02:02,480
his colleagues right came in and said we

1790
01:02:06,549 --> 01:02:04,559
got to help out this is even here

1791
01:02:08,630 --> 01:02:06,559
and and they just said wow this does not

1792
01:02:10,549 --> 01:02:08,640
look good no one comes back from this

1793
01:02:12,150 --> 01:02:10,559
with normal brain function and any kind

1794
01:02:13,910 --> 01:02:12,160
of like capacity to function like a

1795
01:02:15,910 --> 01:02:13,920
normal human being and they kind of

1796
01:02:17,510 --> 01:02:15,920
prepared his family for that and yet

1797
01:02:19,990 --> 01:02:17,520
when he came back he made a complete

1798
01:02:21,670 --> 01:02:20,000
recovery you know and so that in itself

1799
01:02:23,750 --> 01:02:21,680
is miraculous how did that happen what

1800
01:02:24,710 --> 01:02:23,760
does that mean about reality you know

1801
01:02:26,789 --> 01:02:24,720
what does that mean about the

1802
01:02:28,870 --> 01:02:26,799
physicalist model when suddenly

1803
01:02:31,430 --> 01:02:28,880
something happens it's an outlier that's

1804
01:02:34,309 --> 01:02:31,440
just not supposed to be possible right

1805
01:02:36,630 --> 01:02:34,319
but yeah he talks about you know kind of

1806
01:02:38,710 --> 01:02:36,640
being very much in a materialist kind of

1807
01:02:40,069 --> 01:02:38,720
physicalist you know medical perspective

1808
01:02:42,309 --> 01:02:40,079
when this happened to him and then his

1809
01:02:44,309 --> 01:02:42,319
his worldview was blown apart and

1810
01:02:46,230 --> 01:02:44,319
reassembled uh because of this

1811
01:02:48,470 --> 01:02:46,240
experience and now he spends his life

1812
01:02:50,630 --> 01:02:48,480
going around talking about this

1813
01:02:52,549 --> 01:02:50,640
because not only is it fascinating it

1814
01:02:54,390 --> 01:02:52,559
tells us so much about reality but it

1815
01:02:57,029 --> 01:02:54,400
brings meaning and purpose to people's

1816
01:02:58,950 --> 01:02:57,039
lives because just like rey he now sees

1817
01:03:01,029 --> 01:02:58,960
himself as this eternal being who's just

1818
01:03:03,190 --> 01:03:01,039
having a temporary

1819
01:03:05,990 --> 01:03:03,200
modality experience here is a human

1820
01:03:08,150 --> 01:03:06,000
being in a waking reality

1821
01:03:08,950 --> 01:03:08,160
but there's so much more to it than that

1822
01:03:12,069 --> 01:03:08,960
so

1823
01:03:13,829 --> 01:03:12,079
yeah just a fascinating case and uh

1824
01:03:16,789 --> 01:03:13,839
fits very much with what the the free

1825
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:16,799
research found as well

1826
01:03:20,069 --> 01:03:18,720
yeah i kind of went through like a

1827
01:03:22,069 --> 01:03:20,079
little thought experiment of my own

1828
01:03:23,589 --> 01:03:22,079
recently related to some of the these

1829
01:03:25,430 --> 01:03:23,599
concepts and it's

1830
01:03:27,109 --> 01:03:25,440
you know we've all been to the movie

1831
01:03:28,789 --> 01:03:27,119
theater we've all been to a movie where

1832
01:03:30,549 --> 01:03:28,799
we've you know been really immersed in

1833
01:03:33,190 --> 01:03:30,559
that experience

1834
01:03:35,029 --> 01:03:33,200
and you know what would happen if if we

1835
01:03:37,270 --> 01:03:35,039
were in that theater for a very very

1836
01:03:39,109 --> 01:03:37,280
long time and it was just

1837
01:03:40,549 --> 01:03:39,119
you know movie after movie after movie

1838
01:03:43,109 --> 01:03:40,559
after movie and that was the life that

1839
01:03:44,630 --> 01:03:43,119
we knew you know we would eventually

1840
01:03:46,950 --> 01:03:44,640
everyone in that theater we would

1841
01:03:48,630 --> 01:03:46,960
understand and come to understand if we

1842
01:03:49,430 --> 01:03:48,640
particularly had no prior experience of

1843
01:03:51,589 --> 01:03:49,440
that

1844
01:03:53,270 --> 01:03:51,599
uh you know no prior experience of

1845
01:03:54,789 --> 01:03:53,280
anything outside of the theater you know

1846
01:03:56,630 --> 01:03:54,799
we would come to understand that that

1847
01:03:57,829 --> 01:03:56,640
that that constitutes our reality

1848
01:04:00,870 --> 01:03:57,839
everything that's happening on that

1849
01:04:02,870 --> 01:04:00,880
screen is is what's happening in reality

1850
01:04:04,549 --> 01:04:02,880
when we all know that's you know

1851
01:04:05,990 --> 01:04:04,559
preposterous you know that that's

1852
01:04:07,190 --> 01:04:06,000
they're inside a theater they're looking

1853
01:04:09,190 --> 01:04:07,200
at a screen

1854
01:04:12,069 --> 01:04:09,200
and that's really essentially what is

1855
01:04:15,270 --> 01:04:12,079
taking place with our lived experience

1856
01:04:16,870 --> 01:04:15,280
that just because we all happen to be

1857
01:04:18,549 --> 01:04:16,880
you know seated at the same theater

1858
01:04:20,470 --> 01:04:18,559
doesn't necessarily mean that we're

1859
01:04:23,510 --> 01:04:20,480
watching reality take place

1860
01:04:25,829 --> 01:04:23,520
and uh it's experiences like this

1861
01:04:27,270 --> 01:04:25,839
as well as the other uh contact

1862
01:04:29,910 --> 01:04:27,280
experiences that we've already gone

1863
01:04:32,470 --> 01:04:29,920
through that to me uh point very

1864
01:04:34,309 --> 01:04:32,480
strongly as something more fundamental

1865
01:04:36,150 --> 01:04:34,319
more profound that is really taking

1866
01:04:38,390 --> 01:04:36,160
place and quite frankly you know the

1867
01:04:39,829 --> 01:04:38,400
romantic in me is you know admires this

1868
01:04:41,589 --> 01:04:39,839
because it's a lot more beautiful you

1869
01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:41,599
know it's it's a much more

1870
01:04:44,870 --> 01:04:42,640
uh

1871
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:44,880
you know um

1872
01:04:50,069 --> 01:04:47,760
powerful narrative uh in terms of how we

1873
01:04:52,150 --> 01:04:50,079
look at our our place in the world you

1874
01:04:54,789 --> 01:04:52,160
know what it is that we're here to do

1875
01:04:57,109 --> 01:04:54,799
how we interact with one another uh to

1876
01:04:59,670 --> 01:04:57,119
me it really honors the human experience

1877
01:05:02,150 --> 01:04:59,680
and doesn't reduce that to just a you

1878
01:05:04,710 --> 01:05:02,160
know a series of uh deterministic you

1879
01:05:07,349 --> 01:05:04,720
know sort of uh interactions amongst you

1880
01:05:09,750 --> 01:05:07,359
know tiny little particles uh so you

1881
01:05:10,870 --> 01:05:09,760
know i prefer that and uh even though i

1882
01:05:13,430 --> 01:05:10,880
understand that there you know the

1883
01:05:15,510 --> 01:05:13,440
attractiveness of that materialist model

1884
01:05:18,150 --> 01:05:15,520
uh for me at least it uh it just doesn't

1885
01:05:20,230 --> 01:05:18,160
quite hold sway from a i guess an

1886
01:05:22,549 --> 01:05:20,240
existential uh standpoint

1887
01:05:23,910 --> 01:05:22,559
um so i i don't know if anything else

1888
01:05:25,829 --> 01:05:23,920
you want to say on that but if not i

1889
01:05:28,950 --> 01:05:25,839
wanted to go to our next you know our

1890
01:05:31,589 --> 01:05:28,960
our next and final clip which is uh you

1891
01:05:34,150 --> 01:05:31,599
know really kind of out there uh but one

1892
01:05:36,230 --> 01:05:34,160
i think that we both uh enjoy and and

1893
01:05:38,150 --> 01:05:36,240
after that we'll just kind of reflect on

1894
01:05:39,910 --> 01:05:38,160
what we've talked about so far so this

1895
01:05:42,549 --> 01:05:39,920
last clip here

1896
01:05:43,750 --> 01:05:42,559
uh is from terence mckenna

1897
01:05:47,270 --> 01:05:43,760
and those of you aren't familiar with

1898
01:05:48,390 --> 01:05:47,280
mckenna um understand that he is uh well

1899
01:05:51,349 --> 01:05:48,400
known for

1900
01:05:56,309 --> 01:05:51,359
his experiments with psychedelics uh in

1901
01:05:58,789 --> 01:05:56,319
particular uh psilocybin um and he's uh

1902
01:06:01,910 --> 01:05:58,799
well known for his expositions on his

1903
01:06:03,510 --> 01:06:01,920
many uh trips and experiences with uh

1904
01:06:06,390 --> 01:06:03,520
not not only psalms i but other

1905
01:06:08,309 --> 01:06:06,400
hallucinogens so here we have mckenna

1906
01:06:10,950 --> 01:06:08,319
talking about

1907
01:06:14,309 --> 01:06:10,960
uh the mushroom and kind of having a

1908
01:06:15,430 --> 01:06:14,319
conversation with it let's take a listen

1909
01:06:18,870 --> 01:06:15,440
simon

1910
01:06:23,349 --> 01:06:18,880
without doubt in my mind the most unique

1911
01:06:24,950 --> 01:06:23,359
feature of psilocybin is that it speaks

1912
01:06:27,750 --> 01:06:24,960
it speaks

1913
01:06:29,109 --> 01:06:27,760
in your native tongue

1914
01:06:30,829 --> 01:06:29,119
and

1915
01:06:33,589 --> 01:06:30,839
that is

1916
01:06:36,390 --> 01:06:33,599
absolutely confounding to the rational

1917
01:06:38,950 --> 01:06:36,400
mind i mean that's what makes a believer

1918
01:06:41,190 --> 01:06:38,960
out of most skeptics because you know

1919
01:06:43,430 --> 01:06:41,200
drugs of course you can imagine that a

1920
01:06:45,670 --> 01:06:43,440
drug would mess with your mind and you

1921
01:06:47,190 --> 01:06:45,680
would see strange things that doesn't

1922
01:06:49,430 --> 01:06:47,200
seem too

1923
01:06:52,069 --> 01:06:49,440
over the top but that you could take a

1924
01:06:55,270 --> 01:06:52,079
drug that would drop a heavy hand on

1925
01:06:57,829 --> 01:06:55,280
your shoulder and say my friend

1926
01:06:59,349 --> 01:06:57,839
there are a few things you need to

1927
01:07:01,349 --> 01:06:59,359
understand

1928
01:07:04,150 --> 01:07:01,359
number one

1929
01:07:07,190 --> 01:07:04,160
number two meanwhile you know you're

1930
01:07:10,230 --> 01:07:07,200
bursting into tears you're reacting

1931
01:07:12,150 --> 01:07:10,240
furiously because it's right it's wiser

1932
01:07:14,309 --> 01:07:12,160
than you could have possibly imagined

1933
01:07:16,390 --> 01:07:14,319
and it knows you better than you know

1934
01:07:19,750 --> 01:07:16,400
yourself and it's

1935
01:07:21,270 --> 01:07:19,760
not wasting time it's cutting to

1936
01:07:22,950 --> 01:07:21,280
the chase

1937
01:07:24,870 --> 01:07:22,960
and

1938
01:07:26,870 --> 01:07:24,880
all right it's a great clip there from

1939
01:07:29,670 --> 01:07:26,880
uh from terrence

1940
01:07:32,230 --> 01:07:29,680
explaining the uh insight the powerful

1941
01:07:37,029 --> 01:07:32,240
insight of the mushroom which he is kind

1942
01:07:40,230 --> 01:07:37,039
of personifying uh in this uh exposition

1943
01:07:42,309 --> 01:07:40,240
um but you know someone i myself have

1944
01:07:44,309 --> 01:07:42,319
not had an experience a psychedelic

1945
01:07:46,150 --> 01:07:44,319
experience i've certainly known people

1946
01:07:47,589 --> 01:07:46,160
who have and and i've listened to plenty

1947
01:07:49,670 --> 01:07:47,599
of encounters

1948
01:07:51,670 --> 01:07:49,680
it does strike me as very profound that

1949
01:07:53,589 --> 01:07:51,680
you could take a substance a chemical

1950
01:07:55,430 --> 01:07:53,599
substance that would

1951
01:07:57,510 --> 01:07:55,440
interact with your body in such a way

1952
01:07:59,029 --> 01:07:57,520
where you are

1953
01:08:02,230 --> 01:07:59,039
you come away with a sense in which you

1954
01:08:03,589 --> 01:08:02,240
have engaged with another intelligence

1955
01:08:06,069 --> 01:08:03,599
uh that

1956
01:08:07,910 --> 01:08:06,079
you know almost for me it's it's it's

1957
01:08:10,390 --> 01:08:07,920
like have is like a split personality

1958
01:08:12,470 --> 01:08:10,400
happening inside your own psyche what is

1959
01:08:14,069 --> 01:08:12,480
going on there and uh

1960
01:08:16,309 --> 01:08:14,079
you know exo we've talked a little bit

1961
01:08:17,349 --> 01:08:16,319
about uh i think

1962
01:08:18,550 --> 01:08:17,359
you know the

1963
01:08:20,070 --> 01:08:18,560
psychedelics in our personal

1964
01:08:21,749 --> 01:08:20,080
conversations

1965
01:08:24,470 --> 01:08:21,759
what is it about

1966
01:08:25,669 --> 01:08:24,480
mckenna's experience here psychedelics

1967
01:08:26,789 --> 01:08:25,679
in particular

1968
01:08:29,269 --> 01:08:26,799
that

1969
01:08:32,149 --> 01:08:29,279
interests you as it relates to

1970
01:08:34,630 --> 01:08:32,159
contact with the phenomenon

1971
01:08:36,229 --> 01:08:34,640
right well i will begin by

1972
01:08:38,550 --> 01:08:36,239
being open and honest with people and

1973
01:08:41,990 --> 01:08:38,560
say i do consider myself a psychonaut

1974
01:08:43,990 --> 01:08:42,000
and i have partaken of

1975
01:08:46,789 --> 01:08:44,000
these kind of

1976
01:08:48,309 --> 01:08:46,799
compounds and have had some absolutely

1977
01:08:50,950 --> 01:08:48,319
mind-blowing experiences which i've

1978
01:08:53,030 --> 01:08:50,960
shared with you

1979
01:08:54,789 --> 01:08:53,040
i'm personally convinced that it's it's

1980
01:08:57,110 --> 01:08:54,799
much more than what the physicalist

1981
01:08:58,709 --> 01:08:57,120
model would have you believe is going on

1982
01:09:00,390 --> 01:08:58,719
for instance one of the things that the

1983
01:09:02,870 --> 01:09:00,400
physicalist model would have you believe

1984
01:09:05,110 --> 01:09:02,880
is that uh you know you're basically

1985
01:09:06,630 --> 01:09:05,120
your brain's lighting up with the drugs

1986
01:09:08,390 --> 01:09:06,640
just doing things in your brain like in

1987
01:09:10,630 --> 01:09:08,400
the gray matter of your brain

1988
01:09:11,829 --> 01:09:10,640
and what's fascinating is that that is

1989
01:09:13,349 --> 01:09:11,839
not

1990
01:09:15,510 --> 01:09:13,359
confirmed when we actually look at brain

1991
01:09:17,349 --> 01:09:15,520
scans when you look at brain scans

1992
01:09:19,669 --> 01:09:17,359
actually the metabolism or the activity

1993
01:09:21,749 --> 01:09:19,679
of the brain goes is greatly reduced so

1994
01:09:23,110 --> 01:09:21,759
you don't see much going on at all and

1995
01:09:25,110 --> 01:09:23,120
simultaneously people are having the

1996
01:09:26,070 --> 01:09:25,120
most mind-blowing experiences of their

1997
01:09:28,229 --> 01:09:26,080
life

1998
01:09:29,349 --> 01:09:28,239
where everything is much more vivid much

1999
01:09:31,269 --> 01:09:29,359
richer

2000
01:09:33,110 --> 01:09:31,279
uh not just visually but in terms of

2001
01:09:35,430 --> 01:09:33,120
this the feeling of meaning you know

2002
01:09:37,030 --> 01:09:35,440
i've talked to you personally about

2003
01:09:39,749 --> 01:09:37,040
some of the experiences i have i feel

2004
01:09:41,829 --> 01:09:39,759
like i'm dealing with the substrate of

2005
01:09:43,990 --> 01:09:41,839
the meaning

2006
01:09:47,030 --> 01:09:44,000
structure of reality prior to

2007
01:09:49,030 --> 01:09:47,040
physicality and structure prior to form

2008
01:09:50,870 --> 01:09:49,040
just the meaning level of reality and

2009
01:09:52,390 --> 01:09:50,880
it's completely

2010
01:09:54,790 --> 01:09:52,400
insanely

2011
01:09:56,870 --> 01:09:54,800
utterly overwhelming

2012
01:09:58,470 --> 01:09:56,880
but in a really profound way i mean it

2013
01:10:00,790 --> 01:09:58,480
almost feels like it could kill you

2014
01:10:03,030 --> 01:10:00,800
sometimes it's so intense

2015
01:10:05,750 --> 01:10:03,040
on some of the larger amounts

2016
01:10:07,590 --> 01:10:05,760
and it's very overwhelming but it's also

2017
01:10:08,870 --> 01:10:07,600
extremely meaningful

2018
01:10:10,310 --> 01:10:08,880
it will

2019
01:10:11,590 --> 01:10:10,320
for me

2020
01:10:14,470 --> 01:10:11,600
take down

2021
01:10:16,630 --> 01:10:14,480
the the filters that i've erected over

2022
01:10:18,950 --> 01:10:16,640
time to live my life in my everyday life

2023
01:10:21,270 --> 01:10:18,960
there's ways we form a certain identity

2024
01:10:23,590 --> 01:10:21,280
and ego that we we use to navigate

2025
01:10:25,669 --> 01:10:23,600
through the waking world in our society

2026
01:10:27,350 --> 01:10:25,679
and i feel what this does is it

2027
01:10:30,070 --> 01:10:27,360
it knocks that down like a house of

2028
01:10:31,910 --> 01:10:30,080
cards in no time and suddenly you just

2029
01:10:34,470 --> 01:10:31,920
have pure

2030
01:10:36,870 --> 01:10:34,480
emotive meaning

2031
01:10:38,870 --> 01:10:36,880
running over you and running through you

2032
01:10:40,630 --> 01:10:38,880
and it's it's

2033
01:10:41,830 --> 01:10:40,640
it's profound it's powerful and it's

2034
01:10:44,550 --> 01:10:41,840
overwhelming

2035
01:10:46,310 --> 01:10:44,560
and i feel like it does a lot of it can

2036
01:10:48,310 --> 01:10:46,320
do a lot of healing work and even a lot

2037
01:10:50,390 --> 01:10:48,320
of shadow work that might take

2038
01:10:52,870 --> 01:10:50,400
years in therapy you can have it done in

2039
01:10:53,910 --> 01:10:52,880
no time because this gets right to it

2040
01:10:55,430 --> 01:10:53,920
and

2041
01:10:57,990 --> 01:10:55,440
it's good for someone like me who can

2042
01:10:59,350 --> 01:10:58,000
tend to be pretty stoic and pretty

2043
01:11:01,510 --> 01:10:59,360
intellectual

2044
01:11:03,590 --> 01:11:01,520
because it sort of works on a completely

2045
01:11:05,510 --> 01:11:03,600
different level and and

2046
01:11:08,070 --> 01:11:05,520
works on me in ways that i'm not able to

2047
01:11:09,750 --> 01:11:08,080
do to myself even if i want to

2048
01:11:12,310 --> 01:11:09,760
so it's sort of like saying you

2049
01:11:14,229 --> 01:11:12,320
surrender to this process that again is

2050
01:11:17,189 --> 01:11:14,239
it some other intelligence is is it the

2051
01:11:20,149 --> 01:11:17,199
cosmic intelligence is it the life force

2052
01:11:22,550 --> 01:11:20,159
i don't know but it but it's incredibly

2053
01:11:23,590 --> 01:11:22,560
impacting and effective

2054
01:11:25,350 --> 01:11:23,600
and

2055
01:11:26,790 --> 01:11:25,360
i would also say what's what's what's

2056
01:11:28,149 --> 01:11:26,800
interesting too is i never know what's

2057
01:11:29,510 --> 01:11:28,159
going to happen it can be quite

2058
01:11:30,709 --> 01:11:29,520
different each time you can never

2059
01:11:33,830 --> 01:11:30,719
predict it

2060
01:11:35,990 --> 01:11:33,840
and i've also had experiences where

2061
01:11:37,830 --> 01:11:36,000
i'll start making assumptions about okay

2062
01:11:39,830 --> 01:11:37,840
so it's like this so i i shared this

2063
01:11:41,750 --> 01:11:39,840
with you one time that i noticed i was

2064
01:11:43,430 --> 01:11:41,760
seeing a lot of blues and greens right

2065
01:11:45,189 --> 01:11:43,440
with all these fractal patterns right

2066
01:11:46,630 --> 01:11:45,199
that people sometimes see

2067
01:11:48,470 --> 01:11:46,640
and by the way it's more than just much

2068
01:11:50,390 --> 01:11:48,480
more than visual you're feeling this

2069
01:11:51,990 --> 01:11:50,400
intense emotion like you've never felt

2070
01:11:52,950 --> 01:11:52,000
before while you're seeing these

2071
01:11:54,229 --> 01:11:52,960
patterns

2072
01:11:55,990 --> 01:11:54,239
and i remember thinking oh that's

2073
01:11:57,510 --> 01:11:56,000
interesting it's blues and greens and i

2074
01:11:59,830 --> 01:11:57,520
happen to like blues and greens i use

2075
01:12:01,270 --> 01:11:59,840
that a lot in you know paintings and

2076
01:12:03,669 --> 01:12:01,280
just in my everyday life so maybe it's

2077
01:12:05,990 --> 01:12:03,679
just my bias and at that very moment

2078
01:12:07,990 --> 01:12:06,000
everything faded to a grayscale

2079
01:12:09,430 --> 01:12:08,000
and it was like something was feeding

2080
01:12:10,870 --> 01:12:09,440
back to me and saying oh don't be so

2081
01:12:13,910 --> 01:12:10,880
quick to think this is about you it's

2082
01:12:15,430 --> 01:12:13,920
not and let's make that clear right now

2083
01:12:17,030 --> 01:12:15,440
and the other thing i want to add to is

2084
01:12:20,870 --> 01:12:17,040
that

2085
01:12:23,430 --> 01:12:20,880
different modalities have in common

2086
01:12:25,350 --> 01:12:23,440
is that you know we think about

2087
01:12:27,270 --> 01:12:25,360
meditative practice even you know people

2088
01:12:29,110 --> 01:12:27,280
who are lifelong experiencers you know

2089
01:12:31,669 --> 01:12:29,120
or lifelong meditators who've done it

2090
01:12:33,189 --> 01:12:31,679
for a decade or two get to the point

2091
01:12:35,590 --> 01:12:33,199
where they can bring their brain

2092
01:12:37,510 --> 01:12:35,600
function to nearly zero like you look at

2093
01:12:39,270 --> 01:12:37,520
these different you know frequencies of

2094
01:12:41,910 --> 01:12:39,280
their brain i remember there's this

2095
01:12:44,149 --> 01:12:41,920
famous video out there where ken wilbur

2096
01:12:46,310 --> 01:12:44,159
um famous for integral theory

2097
01:12:47,750 --> 01:12:46,320
actually has like a machine

2098
01:12:50,550 --> 01:12:47,760
like a mind machine that's like reading

2099
01:12:52,550 --> 01:12:50,560
his brain waves and by in real time you

2100
01:12:54,390 --> 01:12:52,560
see him go into a meditative state and

2101
01:12:56,630 --> 01:12:54,400
it all reduces to zero across all these

2102
01:12:58,870 --> 01:12:56,640
frequencies so what you're basically

2103
01:13:01,030 --> 01:12:58,880
doing is you're taking your executive

2104
01:13:03,030 --> 01:13:01,040
ego offline

2105
01:13:04,390 --> 01:13:03,040
the usual waking

2106
01:13:06,630 --> 01:13:04,400
state that you use to get around the

2107
01:13:08,229 --> 01:13:06,640
world you're taking that offline and

2108
01:13:09,990 --> 01:13:08,239
where the physicalist model would tell

2109
01:13:12,070 --> 01:13:10,000
you that you should therefore have not

2110
01:13:13,750 --> 01:13:12,080
much of all going on what people

2111
01:13:15,030 --> 01:13:13,760
actually experience across all these

2112
01:13:17,030 --> 01:13:15,040
modalities

2113
01:13:18,709 --> 01:13:17,040
is an incredibly vibrant experience you

2114
01:13:20,550 --> 01:13:18,719
know whether it's even alexander where

2115
01:13:22,550 --> 01:13:20,560
he's in a coma right he's there's no

2116
01:13:24,630 --> 01:13:22,560
brain function and yet he's having these

2117
01:13:26,790 --> 01:13:24,640
like lit up experiences that feel more

2118
01:13:28,870 --> 01:13:26,800
real than real same thing with me on

2119
01:13:30,390 --> 01:13:28,880
psychedelic experiences same thing in

2120
01:13:32,149 --> 01:13:30,400
meditative states again your brain

2121
01:13:34,390 --> 01:13:32,159
function looks like it's really minimal

2122
01:13:36,790 --> 01:13:34,400
yet you're having these basically out of

2123
01:13:38,470 --> 01:13:36,800
body experiences and so what i think is

2124
01:13:40,229 --> 01:13:38,480
really going on there and this is key in

2125
01:13:41,270 --> 01:13:40,239
terms of seeing some sort of overarching

2126
01:13:44,070 --> 01:13:41,280
pattern

2127
01:13:45,590 --> 01:13:44,080
is that we are experiencing more of

2128
01:13:47,910 --> 01:13:45,600
reality

2129
01:13:49,750 --> 01:13:47,920
apart from our filters our usual filters

2130
01:13:51,510 --> 01:13:49,760
when we're in these states

2131
01:13:53,430 --> 01:13:51,520
and these are the same states that we're

2132
01:13:55,590 --> 01:13:53,440
accessing when we have sometimes have

2133
01:13:57,669 --> 01:13:55,600
alien experiences or near-death

2134
01:13:59,830 --> 01:13:57,679
experiences or what have you that again

2135
01:14:02,550 --> 01:13:59,840
you have this modality where we become

2136
01:14:05,189 --> 01:14:02,560
much more than just the executive ego we

2137
01:14:07,430 --> 01:14:05,199
usually identify with and when we are

2138
01:14:12,790 --> 01:14:07,440
able to escape that paradigm we

2139
01:14:16,790 --> 01:14:14,870
well i think to a lot of recent

2140
01:14:18,790 --> 01:14:16,800
conversation that we've had

2141
01:14:21,350 --> 01:14:18,800
regarding uh

2142
01:14:22,630 --> 01:14:21,360
changes in brain states and uh

2143
01:14:24,470 --> 01:14:22,640
particularly that you know it's very

2144
01:14:27,189 --> 01:14:24,480
popular to talk about the research

2145
01:14:29,830 --> 01:14:27,199
that's been done on the caudate putamen

2146
01:14:32,149 --> 01:14:29,840
and greater connectivity

2147
01:14:33,510 --> 01:14:32,159
there in that area of the brain

2148
01:14:34,870 --> 01:14:33,520
and yet

2149
01:14:36,870 --> 01:14:34,880
here we are

2150
01:14:39,110 --> 01:14:36,880
you know and i think rightly so landing

2151
01:14:40,870 --> 01:14:39,120
on a conclusion that it's not

2152
01:14:43,030 --> 01:14:40,880
necessarily

2153
01:14:44,149 --> 01:14:43,040
the the activity that we can measure in

2154
01:14:46,470 --> 01:14:44,159
the brain

2155
01:14:48,790 --> 01:14:46,480
that is what is

2156
01:14:51,430 --> 01:14:48,800
you know correlating and directly

2157
01:14:54,630 --> 01:14:51,440
resulting uh from a phenomenal

2158
01:14:57,910 --> 01:14:54,640
experience um that that is uh

2159
01:15:00,550 --> 01:14:57,920
in some ways uh kind of a dead-end path

2160
01:15:03,030 --> 01:15:00,560
to to follow not that we can't learn

2161
01:15:05,990 --> 01:15:03,040
some something from that uh and not that

2162
01:15:08,630 --> 01:15:06,000
it is meaningless but that these other

2163
01:15:11,110 --> 01:15:08,640
uh sort of results from other

2164
01:15:13,669 --> 01:15:11,120
experiences all seem pretty strongly to

2165
01:15:16,390 --> 01:15:13,679
point to that lowered state of activity

2166
01:15:19,430 --> 01:15:16,400
really corresponding with

2167
01:15:21,590 --> 01:15:19,440
an increase in phenomenal experience

2168
01:15:25,830 --> 01:15:21,600
and it may just be that

2169
01:15:28,070 --> 01:15:25,840
when individuals are in close proximity

2170
01:15:30,310 --> 01:15:28,080
uh to whatever some of these craft

2171
01:15:32,470 --> 01:15:30,320
happen to be uh you know it's not that

2172
01:15:34,310 --> 01:15:32,480
they aren't real you know in the sense

2173
01:15:35,590 --> 01:15:34,320
that they you can knock on them or

2174
01:15:37,590 --> 01:15:35,600
whatever they may generate

2175
01:15:38,870 --> 01:15:37,600
electromagnetic fields and they may do

2176
01:15:39,750 --> 01:15:38,880
all these kinds of things that we can

2177
01:15:41,669 --> 01:15:39,760
measure

2178
01:15:42,790 --> 01:15:41,679
you know with our materialist physical

2179
01:15:45,830 --> 01:15:42,800
as science

2180
01:15:49,030 --> 01:15:45,840
uh and they may have real effects on our

2181
01:15:51,110 --> 01:15:49,040
biology just like you know a fire will

2182
01:15:52,550 --> 01:15:51,120
burn you uh you know

2183
01:15:53,910 --> 01:15:52,560
but getting back to

2184
01:15:55,990 --> 01:15:53,920
you know what you just recently talked

2185
01:15:58,229 --> 01:15:56,000
about on point of convergence with

2186
01:16:00,790 --> 01:15:58,239
donald hoffman uh

2187
01:16:03,910 --> 01:16:00,800
you know these experiences uh you know

2188
01:16:06,149 --> 01:16:03,920
are really at root things that impact

2189
01:16:08,630 --> 01:16:06,159
our ability to survive and navigate our

2190
01:16:10,870 --> 01:16:08,640
environments they are not to be confused

2191
01:16:12,950 --> 01:16:10,880
with what is actually happening

2192
01:16:13,830 --> 01:16:12,960
what is really happening in reality

2193
01:16:15,750 --> 01:16:13,840
itself

2194
01:16:17,430 --> 01:16:15,760
and so i think this is

2195
01:16:19,350 --> 01:16:17,440
at least it was for me

2196
01:16:21,510 --> 01:16:19,360
and i'm still kind of getting through it

2197
01:16:23,430 --> 01:16:21,520
a difficult concept to kind of

2198
01:16:26,630 --> 01:16:23,440
grasp i think

2199
01:16:28,709 --> 01:16:26,640
you know you see a lot of talk in the

2200
01:16:31,189 --> 01:16:28,719
community about consciousness

2201
01:16:34,229 --> 01:16:31,199
and about consciousness being the key

2202
01:16:35,669 --> 01:16:34,239
but and even elements of idealism which

2203
01:16:37,990 --> 01:16:35,679
is you know something that we've you

2204
01:16:38,709 --> 01:16:38,000
know really landed on pretty heavily

2205
01:16:40,550 --> 01:16:38,719
but

2206
01:16:41,910 --> 01:16:40,560
all of the pieces at least from what

2207
01:16:43,270 --> 01:16:41,920
i've observed

2208
01:16:44,149 --> 01:16:43,280
you know aren't quite clicking into

2209
01:16:45,189 --> 01:16:44,159
place

2210
01:16:46,630 --> 01:16:45,199
and so

2211
01:16:49,030 --> 01:16:46,640
you know i think it's

2212
01:16:50,390 --> 01:16:49,040
it's that reason why looking at these

2213
01:16:53,350 --> 01:16:50,400
examples

2214
01:16:54,950 --> 01:16:53,360
uh of not only psychedelic experience

2215
01:16:56,790 --> 01:16:54,960
but in the e

2216
01:16:59,270 --> 01:16:56,800
that really

2217
01:17:02,149 --> 01:16:59,280
point very very well to

2218
01:17:03,669 --> 01:17:02,159
this new model and and i think better

2219
01:17:05,990 --> 01:17:03,679
help us understand

2220
01:17:08,390 --> 01:17:06,000
what might really be taking place here

2221
01:17:10,550 --> 01:17:08,400
and then we can start asking

2222
01:17:11,750 --> 01:17:10,560
the real questions you know so

2223
01:17:14,149 --> 01:17:11,760
what what is

2224
01:17:16,470 --> 01:17:14,159
you know fundamental reality you know

2225
01:17:19,830 --> 01:17:16,480
what what what is happening in the ufo

2226
01:17:22,950 --> 01:17:19,840
encounter you know what really is a a

2227
01:17:25,189 --> 01:17:22,960
non-human entity uh a gray or whatever

2228
01:17:27,590 --> 01:17:25,199
it may be what does that represent you

2229
01:17:29,350 --> 01:17:27,600
know what is actually taking place

2230
01:17:31,110 --> 01:17:29,360
you know these are the questions that we

2231
01:17:32,950 --> 01:17:31,120
need to be asking not

2232
01:17:34,470 --> 01:17:32,960
you know from what star system did it

2233
01:17:35,669 --> 01:17:34,480
come from

2234
01:17:38,790 --> 01:17:35,679
uh or

2235
01:17:40,790 --> 01:17:38,800
you know how do we manufacture that ufo

2236
01:17:42,310 --> 01:17:40,800
uh you know how do we reverse engineer

2237
01:17:44,550 --> 01:17:42,320
it you know it's not that we can't ask

2238
01:17:47,270 --> 01:17:44,560
those questions but i don't think it's

2239
01:17:50,310 --> 01:17:47,280
really getting it uh you know the root

2240
01:17:52,149 --> 01:17:50,320
level of what's taking place here

2241
01:17:54,470 --> 01:17:52,159
right and you touched on donald hoffman

2242
01:17:56,709 --> 01:17:54,480
and how i talked about his work my most

2243
01:17:59,030 --> 01:17:56,719
recent point of convergence episode and

2244
01:18:00,950 --> 01:17:59,040
just for those who haven't heard that

2245
01:18:03,270 --> 01:18:00,960
what he's basically saying is that

2246
01:18:05,990 --> 01:18:03,280
evolution has served up a desktop

2247
01:18:08,070 --> 01:18:06,000
interface that we use to interact with

2248
01:18:10,630 --> 01:18:08,080
reality in the same way that when you

2249
01:18:13,189 --> 01:18:10,640
need to write a paper or move files

2250
01:18:15,430 --> 01:18:13,199
around on your computer you access it

2251
01:18:17,990 --> 01:18:15,440
via a desktop interface and we know that

2252
01:18:19,430 --> 01:18:18,000
the desktop interface is not the reality

2253
01:18:20,550 --> 01:18:19,440
of the computer the reality of the

2254
01:18:22,470 --> 01:18:20,560
computer is

2255
01:18:24,790 --> 01:18:22,480
you know transistors and zeros and ones

2256
01:18:27,350 --> 01:18:24,800
some binary code and a mixture of

2257
01:18:28,950 --> 01:18:27,360
software and hardware but we can use the

2258
01:18:30,870 --> 01:18:28,960
interface in a meaningful way and

2259
01:18:33,030 --> 01:18:30,880
accomplish real tasks

2260
01:18:35,030 --> 01:18:33,040
but we would not be so silly as to

2261
01:18:36,870 --> 01:18:35,040
assume that the desktop interface is

2262
01:18:39,189 --> 01:18:36,880
really the computer world right it's

2263
01:18:41,990 --> 01:18:39,199
just a an abstraction that's useful for

2264
01:18:44,229 --> 01:18:42,000
us in the same way he's saying our

2265
01:18:46,550 --> 01:18:44,239
everyday experience the way we

2266
01:18:49,510 --> 01:18:46,560
see reality the way we perceive reality

2267
01:18:51,990 --> 01:18:49,520
through all our senses is only that it

2268
01:18:53,510 --> 01:18:52,000
is just a desktop interface

2269
01:18:55,189 --> 01:18:53,520
and that

2270
01:18:57,750 --> 01:18:55,199
he's also argued that the reason the

2271
01:18:59,350 --> 01:18:57,760
fermi paradox exists which suggests that

2272
01:19:01,590 --> 01:18:59,360
it's strange that for how much life

2273
01:19:03,189 --> 01:19:01,600
there should be out there based on the

2274
01:19:05,590 --> 01:19:03,199
plentitude of

2275
01:19:07,189 --> 01:19:05,600
even habitable planets that should be

2276
01:19:10,229 --> 01:19:07,199
existing across the expanse of the

2277
01:19:12,070 --> 01:19:10,239
cosmos why haven't we found more life

2278
01:19:13,750 --> 01:19:12,080
alien life and he's saying it's because

2279
01:19:15,830 --> 01:19:13,760
we're looking in exactly the wrong place

2280
01:19:17,750 --> 01:19:15,840
we're looking within the paradigm

2281
01:19:20,630 --> 01:19:17,760
of the desktop interface that he's

2282
01:19:22,709 --> 01:19:20,640
saying space time itself is not real it

2283
01:19:23,750 --> 01:19:22,719
is just how it appears to us in the same

2284
01:19:27,030 --> 01:19:23,760
way that your

2285
01:19:29,189 --> 01:19:27,040
your you know trash icon on your desktop

2286
01:19:30,950 --> 01:19:29,199
computer is not real it's just a

2287
01:19:33,350 --> 01:19:30,960
rendering that helps you

2288
01:19:34,790 --> 01:19:33,360
navigate that space and in the same way

2289
01:19:37,910 --> 01:19:34,800
space time

2290
01:19:41,110 --> 01:19:37,920
is just an icon that helps us navigate

2291
01:19:43,669 --> 01:19:41,120
our lives again it can be

2292
01:19:45,669 --> 01:19:43,679
meaningful without being literal and

2293
01:19:47,189 --> 01:19:45,679
that's that's the key distinction and

2294
01:19:49,189 --> 01:19:47,199
again all of what we're talking about

2295
01:19:50,870 --> 01:19:49,199
here the whole more real than real and

2296
01:19:52,790 --> 01:19:50,880
near-death experiences and psychedelic

2297
01:19:55,110 --> 01:19:52,800
journeys and in my own experience with

2298
01:19:56,870 --> 01:19:55,120
meditative practice same thing

2299
01:19:58,229 --> 01:19:56,880
once you've meditated for a long time

2300
01:20:00,870 --> 01:19:58,239
you can drop into a stream of

2301
01:20:02,870 --> 01:20:00,880
consciousness where you feel like your

2302
01:20:04,630 --> 01:20:02,880
your usual sense of who you are is

2303
01:20:06,790 --> 01:20:04,640
expanded and you're experiencing things

2304
01:20:08,629 --> 01:20:06,800
and even uh having

2305
01:20:10,470 --> 01:20:08,639
like recall memories of things that

2306
01:20:12,229 --> 01:20:10,480
don't seem to be part of this particular

2307
01:20:14,470 --> 01:20:12,239
iteration that's what in my experience

2308
01:20:15,990 --> 01:20:14,480
anyway so all of this is pointing in the

2309
01:20:18,390 --> 01:20:16,000
same direction and that's probably the

2310
01:20:20,550 --> 01:20:18,400
most fascinating aspect of all this for

2311
01:20:24,709 --> 01:20:20,560
me

2312
01:20:27,990 --> 01:20:25,910
what

2313
01:20:30,229 --> 01:20:28,000
value

2314
01:20:32,550 --> 01:20:30,239
is this experience you know what what

2315
01:20:34,390 --> 01:20:32,560
does this uh

2316
01:20:36,790 --> 01:20:34,400
you know the modality that we're all the

2317
01:20:37,910 --> 01:20:36,800
most familiar with uh in the 21st

2318
01:20:39,669 --> 01:20:37,920
century

2319
01:20:42,310 --> 01:20:39,679
you know

2320
01:20:43,750 --> 01:20:42,320
what kind of value does it provide i'm

2321
01:20:45,510 --> 01:20:43,760
not saying it's meaningless i don't

2322
01:20:49,270 --> 01:20:45,520
think anyone's saying that but what

2323
01:20:51,669 --> 01:20:49,280
purpose does it serve if if it is uh

2324
01:20:54,870 --> 01:20:51,679
you know it is it is removed

2325
01:20:56,870 --> 01:20:54,880
in some degree or varying degrees from

2326
01:20:59,910 --> 01:20:56,880
that you know root

2327
01:21:02,550 --> 01:20:59,920
experience and we we hear from folks who

2328
01:21:05,270 --> 01:21:02,560
who have had near-death experiences we

2329
01:21:07,510 --> 01:21:05,280
hear from folks who have been

2330
01:21:09,910 --> 01:21:07,520
who shared abduction experiences you

2331
01:21:12,550 --> 01:21:09,920
know they've talked about this in terms

2332
01:21:14,470 --> 01:21:12,560
of you know this is kind of a place to

2333
01:21:15,189 --> 01:21:14,480
learn it's a place to grow it's a place

2334
01:21:18,229 --> 01:21:15,199
to

2335
01:21:20,310 --> 01:21:18,239
uh you know experience and do different

2336
01:21:22,310 --> 01:21:20,320
things and in many ways do it over and

2337
01:21:23,830 --> 01:21:22,320
over again you know there's this element

2338
01:21:25,910 --> 01:21:23,840
of reincarnation

2339
01:21:27,430 --> 01:21:25,920
uh past life experience is something we

2340
01:21:29,030 --> 01:21:27,440
haven't touched on in this episode but

2341
01:21:31,110 --> 01:21:29,040
certainly plays a part

2342
01:21:32,390 --> 01:21:31,120
in the overall you know sort of spectrum

2343
01:21:33,510 --> 01:21:32,400
here

2344
01:21:34,709 --> 01:21:33,520
and so

2345
01:21:37,430 --> 01:21:34,719
you know that that seems like a

2346
01:21:39,189 --> 01:21:37,440
reasonable conclusion to land on that

2347
01:21:41,910 --> 01:21:39,199
this experience

2348
01:21:44,870 --> 01:21:41,920
uh that we all share is meaningful and

2349
01:21:48,629 --> 01:21:44,880
valuable in in as much as it is

2350
01:21:51,270 --> 01:21:48,639
uh it is instructive uh it allows us to

2351
01:21:55,510 --> 01:21:51,280
uh to experiment to have novel

2352
01:21:58,470 --> 01:21:55,520
experience uh to interact uh to fail

2353
01:22:00,629 --> 01:21:58,480
uh to experience pain and enjoy

2354
01:22:01,910 --> 01:22:00,639
you know and maybe these are things that

2355
01:22:03,669 --> 01:22:01,920
are

2356
01:22:04,870 --> 01:22:03,679
at least not experienced in the same

2357
01:22:07,510 --> 01:22:04,880
degree

2358
01:22:10,070 --> 01:22:07,520
that uh we that may be experienced at

2359
01:22:12,070 --> 01:22:10,080
that more root level you know it's this

2360
01:22:15,189 --> 01:22:12,080
kind of recursive

2361
01:22:17,910 --> 01:22:15,199
process of refinement in a way

2362
01:22:21,030 --> 01:22:17,920
uh that we have to you know take lessons

2363
01:22:22,390 --> 01:22:21,040
learned and go back and come back again

2364
01:22:25,830 --> 01:22:22,400
uh to

2365
01:22:26,790 --> 01:22:25,840
to perfect that uh sort of experience i

2366
01:22:29,030 --> 01:22:26,800
don't know what your thoughts are on

2367
01:22:30,709 --> 01:22:29,040
that but you know to me as someone who's

2368
01:22:32,629 --> 01:22:30,719
coming from a religious background and

2369
01:22:34,310 --> 01:22:32,639
has wrestled with these big questions

2370
01:22:36,390 --> 01:22:34,320
you know this is something that i i land

2371
01:22:38,149 --> 01:22:36,400
on after looking at this subject for

2372
01:22:39,510 --> 01:22:38,159
some time

2373
01:22:41,750 --> 01:22:39,520
right i would say a couple things on

2374
01:22:43,669 --> 01:22:41,760
that uh and i want to touch a bit more

2375
01:22:46,629 --> 01:22:43,679
on terence mckenna's perspective since

2376
01:22:48,390 --> 01:22:46,639
we listened to his uh clip last

2377
01:22:50,260 --> 01:22:48,400
number one he's made an excellent point

2378
01:22:51,669 --> 01:22:50,270
that if you're going to

2379
01:22:54,149 --> 01:22:51,679
[Music]

2380
01:22:55,669 --> 01:22:54,159
spread alien life alien intelligence

2381
01:22:57,830 --> 01:22:55,679
through the cosmos

2382
01:23:00,149 --> 01:22:57,840
spores would be a great way to do it you

2383
01:23:02,550 --> 01:23:00,159
could you could plant these spores on

2384
01:23:04,870 --> 01:23:02,560
you know you could sprinkle them across

2385
01:23:07,030 --> 01:23:04,880
meteorites and whatnot and different you

2386
01:23:09,430 --> 01:23:07,040
know debris that are out in space that

2387
01:23:11,590 --> 01:23:09,440
eventually will impact planets and then

2388
01:23:13,350 --> 01:23:11,600
only when we know this works the way

2389
01:23:15,750 --> 01:23:13,360
spores work right only when the

2390
01:23:18,629 --> 01:23:15,760
environmental conditions are

2391
01:23:20,790 --> 01:23:18,639
perfectly suitable does the spore then

2392
01:23:22,310 --> 01:23:20,800
you know become life and can become a

2393
01:23:24,550 --> 01:23:22,320
mushroom or whatever

2394
01:23:26,070 --> 01:23:24,560
if you think about it

2395
01:23:27,750 --> 01:23:26,080
knowing that the native species is

2396
01:23:29,750 --> 01:23:27,760
eventually going to come across these

2397
01:23:31,590 --> 01:23:29,760
and probably ingest them at some point

2398
01:23:33,189 --> 01:23:31,600
and then that becomes a modality which

2399
01:23:35,590 --> 01:23:33,199
you could have communication between

2400
01:23:37,669 --> 01:23:35,600
this alien intelligence and this new

2401
01:23:40,149 --> 01:23:37,679
novel kind of life that's sprung up on

2402
01:23:42,470 --> 01:23:40,159
this planet that that would be a really

2403
01:23:45,110 --> 01:23:42,480
fail-safe way to pretty much guarantee

2404
01:23:47,590 --> 01:23:45,120
interaction communication amongst these

2405
01:23:49,270 --> 01:23:47,600
very different different intelligences

2406
01:23:50,790 --> 01:23:49,280
and something else that terence mckenna

2407
01:23:53,110 --> 01:23:50,800
has pointed out is that

2408
01:23:55,189 --> 01:23:53,120
as much as ufologists talk about

2409
01:23:56,790 --> 01:23:55,199
man i wish we could reproduce

2410
01:23:58,950 --> 01:23:56,800
these experiences that people have with

2411
01:24:00,709 --> 01:23:58,960
aliens or seeing ufos

2412
01:24:02,390 --> 01:24:00,719
what mckenna will say is well you know

2413
01:24:05,270 --> 01:24:02,400
psychedelics are a guaranteed

2414
01:24:07,830 --> 01:24:05,280
reproducible uh methodology you can use

2415
01:24:09,270 --> 01:24:07,840
to have some of these experiences and

2416
01:24:11,110 --> 01:24:09,280
you know he makes the point again that

2417
01:24:12,790 --> 01:24:11,120
you know

2418
01:24:15,110 --> 01:24:12,800
is the mushroom a kind of alien

2419
01:24:18,310 --> 01:24:15,120
intelligence even kind of a collective

2420
01:24:19,910 --> 01:24:18,320
alien intelligence you know like we um

2421
01:24:21,910 --> 01:24:19,920
we know that they're the root structure

2422
01:24:24,870 --> 01:24:21,920
that sort of you know connect these

2423
01:24:27,270 --> 01:24:24,880
different mushrooms there was a a huge

2424
01:24:28,229 --> 01:24:27,280
uh location found i think in washington

2425
01:24:30,229 --> 01:24:28,239
state

2426
01:24:32,390 --> 01:24:30,239
where the the root system for this and

2427
01:24:34,870 --> 01:24:32,400
huge mushroom patch was all connected it

2428
01:24:36,790 --> 01:24:34,880
was like one single intelligence kind of

2429
01:24:38,149 --> 01:24:36,800
like all connected across what we see on

2430
01:24:40,149 --> 01:24:38,159
the surface

2431
01:24:42,709 --> 01:24:40,159
and

2432
01:24:44,470 --> 01:24:42,719
you know you definitely like he said

2433
01:24:46,229 --> 01:24:44,480
in terms of the mushroom speaking to you

2434
01:24:47,430 --> 01:24:46,239
get the sense that

2435
01:24:48,790 --> 01:24:47,440
you're dealing with some other

2436
01:24:50,550 --> 01:24:48,800
intelligence it's not just your

2437
01:24:51,990 --> 01:24:50,560
subconscious manifesting or something

2438
01:24:54,149 --> 01:24:52,000
like that or you're just

2439
01:24:55,110 --> 01:24:54,159
you know using creative expression or

2440
01:24:56,950 --> 01:24:55,120
something

2441
01:24:58,390 --> 01:24:56,960
again i think people from a materialist

2442
01:25:00,229 --> 01:24:58,400
or physicalist model

2443
01:25:02,550 --> 01:25:00,239
tend to make those assumptions but those

2444
01:25:03,270 --> 01:25:02,560
who have actually had the experience say

2445
01:25:06,229 --> 01:25:03,280
ah

2446
01:25:09,270 --> 01:25:06,239
this is not that this is mind-blowingly

2447
01:25:10,790 --> 01:25:09,280
different this feels alien it feels like

2448
01:25:11,590 --> 01:25:10,800
i'm dealing with something that either

2449
01:25:15,669 --> 01:25:11,600
is

2450
01:25:17,669 --> 01:25:15,679
we're not usually in in contact with in

2451
01:25:20,870 --> 01:25:17,679
our waking experience or it's some sort

2452
01:25:24,149 --> 01:25:20,880
of alien intelligence that uh interacts

2453
01:25:26,709 --> 01:25:24,159
with me in a in a telepathic

2454
01:25:28,870 --> 01:25:26,719
deeply embodied way that like rolls over

2455
01:25:30,709 --> 01:25:28,880
me like a tsunami you know and that's

2456
01:25:32,709 --> 01:25:30,719
that's been my experience

2457
01:25:34,229 --> 01:25:32,719
and and touching on what you said about

2458
01:25:36,229 --> 01:25:34,239
you know religious history and whatnot

2459
01:25:38,470 --> 01:25:36,239
and religious experience you look at

2460
01:25:40,470 --> 01:25:38,480
something like dmt

2461
01:25:42,149 --> 01:25:40,480
and what's fascinating is you know

2462
01:25:44,550 --> 01:25:42,159
someone can have an experience with dmt

2463
01:25:46,390 --> 01:25:44,560
and be in and out in like 10 15 minutes

2464
01:25:48,709 --> 01:25:46,400
right that's that's how much commitment

2465
01:25:51,350 --> 01:25:48,719
you have to make and yet many many

2466
01:25:53,430 --> 01:25:51,360
people that go in as like hardcore

2467
01:25:54,870 --> 01:25:53,440
atheists will come out believing in god

2468
01:25:56,870 --> 01:25:54,880
believing in

2469
01:25:58,870 --> 01:25:56,880
the connectivity between all sentient

2470
01:26:00,229 --> 01:25:58,880
life believing in the meaning the

2471
01:26:03,830 --> 01:26:00,239
overarching

2472
01:26:06,149 --> 01:26:03,840
deep purposefulness of life of existence

2473
01:26:08,390 --> 01:26:06,159
because of this experience in 10 minutes

2474
01:26:10,149 --> 01:26:08,400
you know it's just it is fascinating not

2475
01:26:12,790 --> 01:26:10,159
just how impacting it is but how

2476
01:26:15,830 --> 01:26:12,800
reproducible it is and it's unfortunate

2477
01:26:18,790 --> 01:26:15,840
that our society the laws and whatnot uh

2478
01:26:21,590 --> 01:26:18,800
are so restrictive uh in this in this

2479
01:26:23,910 --> 01:26:21,600
way and really haven't made

2480
01:26:26,229 --> 01:26:23,920
useful distinctions between the kinds of

2481
01:26:28,790 --> 01:26:26,239
substances that can be detrimental to

2482
01:26:30,950 --> 01:26:28,800
people versus ones that can be not only

2483
01:26:33,590 --> 01:26:30,960
neutral or positive but could even have

2484
01:26:35,030 --> 01:26:33,600
overarching positive impact on an entire

2485
01:26:37,430 --> 01:26:35,040
society and that was kind of what

2486
01:26:40,229 --> 01:26:37,440
terence mckenna lobbied for and i tend

2487
01:26:44,390 --> 01:26:43,030
yeah it seems that we have some

2488
01:26:46,470 --> 01:26:44,400
degree of

2489
01:26:48,390 --> 01:26:46,480
remembering and

2490
01:26:51,270 --> 01:26:48,400
reanimating to do

2491
01:26:53,910 --> 01:26:51,280
when it comes to what these substances

2492
01:26:57,270 --> 01:26:53,920
can teach us you know we certainly have

2493
01:26:58,709 --> 01:26:57,280
many examples of other human cultures in

2494
01:27:00,629 --> 01:26:58,719
history and even

2495
01:27:02,470 --> 01:27:00,639
uh in remote places

2496
01:27:05,510 --> 01:27:02,480
in in the world today

2497
01:27:07,830 --> 01:27:05,520
that still you know use these substances

2498
01:27:11,270 --> 01:27:07,840
in a shamanic practice

2499
01:27:12,629 --> 01:27:11,280
to gain wisdom and insight into their

2500
01:27:14,870 --> 01:27:12,639
experience

2501
01:27:17,030 --> 01:27:14,880
and it strikes me that we've really got

2502
01:27:19,350 --> 01:27:17,040
to recapture some of that

2503
01:27:20,709 --> 01:27:19,360
uh you know it's not just

2504
01:27:23,430 --> 01:27:20,719
the

2505
01:27:26,310 --> 01:27:23,440
western pharmacological approach of just

2506
01:27:27,990 --> 01:27:26,320
take this and you'll be fine you know

2507
01:27:29,350 --> 01:27:28,000
this will solve your problem it's it's

2508
01:27:31,590 --> 01:27:29,360
take this

2509
01:27:32,390 --> 01:27:31,600
in the context of

2510
01:27:34,950 --> 01:27:32,400
you know

2511
01:27:36,310 --> 01:27:34,960
someone who's been down that path before

2512
01:27:37,669 --> 01:27:36,320
you know you can learn from their

2513
01:27:41,110 --> 01:27:37,679
journey they're going to help you

2514
01:27:43,750 --> 01:27:41,120
navigate this you know it is a communal

2515
01:27:46,229 --> 01:27:43,760
it is a ritual quite frankly

2516
01:27:50,149 --> 01:27:46,239
and uh so there is this sense in which

2517
01:27:54,229 --> 01:27:50,159
we we are going to need to re-ritualize

2518
01:27:55,990 --> 01:27:54,239
uh some aspects of our culture

2519
01:27:57,189 --> 01:27:56,000
in order to more fully understand and

2520
01:28:00,550 --> 01:27:57,199
reclaim

2521
01:28:02,229 --> 01:28:00,560
uh i think our our understanding of what

2522
01:28:04,870 --> 01:28:02,239
is really taking place here and to

2523
01:28:06,070 --> 01:28:04,880
advance not only our science but advance

2524
01:28:10,390 --> 01:28:06,080
our wisdom

2525
01:28:13,110 --> 01:28:10,400
and it's also in that same vein that

2526
01:28:14,550 --> 01:28:13,120
as we move forward with

2527
01:28:16,390 --> 01:28:14,560
this greater

2528
01:28:19,990 --> 01:28:16,400
sort of awakening

2529
01:28:22,790 --> 01:28:20,000
of reality as it pertains to the ufo

2530
01:28:25,270 --> 01:28:22,800
and and the phenomenon at large

2531
01:28:27,669 --> 01:28:25,280
you know just just in that that same way

2532
01:28:30,550 --> 01:28:27,679
we are going to have to learn a new

2533
01:28:33,350 --> 01:28:30,560
language we're going to have to learn

2534
01:28:34,790 --> 01:28:33,360
new ways of listening and a being and of

2535
01:28:37,910 --> 01:28:34,800
responding

2536
01:28:39,750 --> 01:28:37,920
interacting in order for us to

2537
01:28:41,189 --> 01:28:39,760
have a meaningful relationship with

2538
01:28:43,510 --> 01:28:41,199
whatever

2539
01:28:46,470 --> 01:28:43,520
these entities represent

2540
01:28:48,149 --> 01:28:46,480
uh you know and and i'm hopeful as i

2541
01:28:49,750 --> 01:28:48,159
think you are as well

2542
01:28:51,110 --> 01:28:49,760
that we are at the beginning of that

2543
01:28:53,510 --> 01:28:51,120
conversation

2544
01:28:55,510 --> 01:28:53,520
and you know i hope that

2545
01:28:57,189 --> 01:28:55,520
we have the uh

2546
01:28:59,910 --> 01:28:57,199
we are having the right

2547
01:29:00,790 --> 01:28:59,920
conversations in the right places right

2548
01:29:05,270 --> 01:29:00,800
now

2549
01:29:08,390 --> 01:29:05,280
so that as this unfolds we are prepared

2550
01:29:11,430 --> 01:29:08,400
uh to ask the right questions and and to

2551
01:29:13,110 --> 01:29:11,440
engage with this whatever it may be

2552
01:29:14,550 --> 01:29:13,120
with a state a

2553
01:29:15,830 --> 01:29:14,560
sort of an act of

2554
01:29:17,750 --> 01:29:15,840
wisdom

2555
01:29:19,110 --> 01:29:17,760
uh and intentionality we're not just

2556
01:29:21,270 --> 01:29:19,120
going to sort of

2557
01:29:22,870 --> 01:29:21,280
stumble into it and fall our way into

2558
01:29:24,629 --> 01:29:22,880
disclosure we're going to do this with

2559
01:29:26,709 --> 01:29:24,639
some thoughtfulness

2560
01:29:28,709 --> 01:29:26,719
because it really is something we might

2561
01:29:30,390 --> 01:29:28,719
only get one good shot at doing

2562
01:29:31,270 --> 01:29:30,400
correctly

2563
01:29:33,189 --> 01:29:31,280
so

2564
01:29:34,870 --> 01:29:33,199
with that that said this has been a good

2565
01:29:37,030 --> 01:29:34,880
episode i've enjoyed

2566
01:29:40,229 --> 01:29:37,040
looking at these different

2567
01:29:42,629 --> 01:29:40,239
aspects and areas we very much enjoy

2568
01:29:44,470 --> 01:29:42,639
uh having you along with us on this

2569
01:29:46,229 --> 01:29:44,480
journey and look forward to your

2570
01:29:48,470 --> 01:29:46,239
feedback

2571
01:29:50,790 --> 01:29:48,480
as always you can find us

2572
01:29:53,510 --> 01:29:50,800
out there on on the internet various

2573
01:29:54,709 --> 01:29:53,520
places on youtube on the xo academian

2574
01:29:56,790 --> 01:29:54,719
channel

2575
01:30:00,629 --> 01:29:56,800
and under liminal frames

2576
01:30:03,510 --> 01:30:00,639
through your podcast platform of choice

2577
01:30:04,870 --> 01:30:03,520
so we'll conclude as we often do

2578
01:30:07,350 --> 01:30:04,880
with our

2579
01:30:10,070 --> 01:30:07,360
blessing

2580
01:30:12,870 --> 01:30:10,080
it may even be called a benediction

2581
01:30:15,510 --> 01:30:12,880
so may the quality of our questions

2582
01:30:18,550 --> 01:30:15,520
shaped by a desire for understanding

2583
01:30:20,310 --> 01:30:18,560
enhance our journey of discovery

2584
01:30:22,709 --> 01:30:20,320
and may our travels broaden the sphere

2585
01:30:24,310 --> 01:30:22,719
of our consciousness reminding us that

2586
01:30:26,229 --> 01:30:24,320
new discoveries

2587
01:30:27,669 --> 01:30:26,239
beget new horizons

2588
01:30:29,590 --> 01:30:27,679
as always

2589
01:30:31,590 --> 01:30:29,600
adventure awaits

2590
01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:31,600
we'll see you next time on liminal